From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Dec 31 18:21:11 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07616; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 14:02:19 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA26962; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 13:21:16 -0500 Received: from homer12.u.washington.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA26955; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 13:21:13 -0500 Received: by homer12.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW95.12/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA21349; Sun, 31 Dec 95 10:21:12 -0800 X-Sender: lilyan@homer12.u.washington.edu Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 10:21:11 -0800 (PST) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth and posting of writings In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: asalaam-u-aleikum Amin to all of above! Lily From Majordomo-Owner@world.std.com Sun Dec 31 19:44:07 1995 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22733; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 14:44:08 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA04519; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 14:44:07 -0500 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 14:44:07 -0500 Message-Id: <199512311944.OAA04519@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: Majordomo@world.std.com Subject: SUBSCRIBE tariqas Reply-To: Majordomo@world.std.com Status: RO X-Status: -- Zamyat Kirby has been added to tariqas. No action is required on your part. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 02:26:28 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09667; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 22:00:03 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA13759; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 21:18:56 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA13750; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 21:18:53 -0500 From: informe@best.com Received: from blob.best.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02624; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 21:26:32 -0500 Received: from [204.156.129.34] (informe.vip.best.com [204.156.129.34]) by blob.best.net (8.6.12/8.6.5) with SMTP id SAA17307 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 18:26:28 -0800 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 18:26:28 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: posting of writings Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >I'm not sure what to do about this situation. There seem to be two >different "camps" here -- those that value the many postings that have >been contributed by Fouad Haddad, and those that would prefer that these >postings not be quite so voluminous. >One alternative that might make sense would be to publish such types of >materials over the Web, and to simply announce their presence, from time >to time, in tariqas -- so that people who were interested and had access >to the Web could look them up. Inshallah, we plan to make these postings available on the Haqqani Foundation Homepage. They can be located via the table of contents at: http://www.best.com/~informe/mateen/Sufi/toc.html If you have not stoppped by lately, let me invite you to do so. There are many articles and translations of classic Islamic and Sufi works, news from overseas, transcribed lectures, poetry, and material in nine languages. We invite contributions from all. Salaams, Hamza From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 01:43:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09922; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 22:00:59 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA14314; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 21:29:00 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA14300; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 21:28:58 -0500 Received: from peoples1.peoples.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05470; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 21:38:23 -0500 Received: from [206.40.96.5] (randolph-3.peoples.net [206.40.96.5]) by peoples1.peoples.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA15645 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 20:21:43 -0600 Message-Id: <199601010221.UAA15645@peoples1.peoples.net> To: Tariqas Subject: Rumi 7.121 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 95 20:43:00 -0500 From: "Wm. Whitney" X-Mailer: E-Mail Connection v2.5.03 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: -- [ From: Wm. Whitney * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- The following excerpt is published with permission of the Publisher, CEL\e Productions. 7.121 O Beloved, whose light Comes from behind the curtains, Your light and warmth Are like summer for us. Take us to the rose garden, Our Hearts are fiery like summer. O salve for the eyes of my soul, Where did You go? Come, come, so the water Will spring from our oven. Come, so the barren land will be green, The cemetery will become a garden, Grapes will ripen And our bread will cook. O sun of Soul, sun of Heart, O Beauty, who shames the sun with Your beauty, Come and see that sticky mud Which got stuck to our Soul. We can't get rid of it. The kindness of Your face Has changed so many thorns Into so many rose gardens That our faith has been increased Hundreds of thousands of time. O eternal Love, in order to deliver this Soul Out of this dungeon to God, How beautifully You showed Your face from this mold. O bright morning, Make joy during the time of gloom. Show in the evening A bright, wonderful day. You make pearls our of blue beads And hang them around the mules' necks. You scare Venus. You make kings out of the penniless. Good for You, our Sultan. Where are the eyes that will see a trace of Your dust? Where are the ears that hear our testament? Where is the mind that understands our evidence? If the Heart sees the beauty of that sugar cane And tells of its grace and favors, Taste and flavor will sing songs At the bottom of every tooth. The sound of drums coming from the land of Soul Is saying, "Particles are reaching everywhere, Sweet basil to sweet basil, Rose to rose. Everything is becoming free >From the jail of our thorns." (c)1995, CEL\e Productions. Contact >paneagle@peoples.net<. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 03:34:33 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21252; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 22:56:46 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA17323; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 22:18:55 -0500 Received: from wolfe.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA17312; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 22:18:52 -0500 Received: from [204.157.98.65] (sea-ts1-p11.wolfenet.com [204.157.98.65]) by wolfe.net (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id TAA27927 for ; Sun, 31 Dec 1995 19:36:05 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: gws@gonzo.wolfe.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 20:34:33 -0700 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: gws@wolfe.net (George Steffen) Subject: Re: posting of writings Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalam Aleikum While I am one who has appreciated every article which Fouad Haddad and others (poems, treatises and voluminous opinion) have posted I suspect that there are others who a variety of problems with these postings. I would support two ideas. Those who can post on the www do so and inform us of those postings if it is not too much trouble to do so. Second, those who respond to issues on this BB might take a page from the criticism of Mr Haddad and limit those responses to something like a page or two. We have been subjected to some long postings and conciseness is definitely a virtue in communication. With regards to Mr Haddad and his marvelous work, Habib N. >Assalamu alaikum. > >I'm not sure what to do about this situation. There seem to be two >different "camps" here -- those that value the many postings that have >been contributed by Fouad Haddad, and those that would prefer that these >postings not be quite so voluminous. > >Insh'Allah, perhaps understanding of each other's perspective, and a >willingness to seek alternatives, might be useful. Among other things, >not everyone has the same priviledge of access to their email account at >a low cost or free. If someone pays for the time that it takes to >download their mail, or pays for the volume of messages received, dozens >of postings can be quite expensive. On the other hand, many of us >clearly appreciate the value of these postings, and it is the foundation >of tariqas that people share what they want (within the bounds of >Netiquette/Adab, Insh'Allah). > >One alternative that might make sense would be to publish such types of >materials over the Web, and to simply announce their presence, from time >to time, in tariqas -- so that people who were interested and had access >to the Web could look them up. That would also have the benefit of >making these postings better organized than is possible in my email >reader at least, and turning them into a resource for future use. I >downloaded a file of all the sincerity postings, myself, because they >were of particular interest. > >How does that sound to folks? > >Yours, > >habib rose >host of tariqas From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 06:44:27 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05582; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 02:25:44 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA00593; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 01:56:41 -0500 Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA00588; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 01:56:36 -0500 Received: from localhost (darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.6.4/8.6.4) id RAA22466; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 17:56:32 +1100 Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 17:44:27 +1100 (EST) From: Fred Rice Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullai wa barakatuh! On Sun, 31 Dec 1995, Steve H Rose wrote: > My hypothesis is that some of us, partly from being "Westerners," partly > from our own psychological states, tend to approach spirituality from the > point of individual experience -- and to be threatened by truly becoming > part of a collective entity (afraid of losing our identity or control, > perhaps). Others of us, partly from being from more traditional > cultures, partly from our own psychological states, tend to approach > spirituality from the collective/communcal point of view -- to see our > growth as intricately related to the growth of others in our group, and > perhaps to the leadership of a "master" -- and to be threatened by truly > pursuing our individual experience (afraid of losing our identity as part > of the group, or the control that comes from the group, perhaps). > > Whattyathink? Hmmm... I definitely have come from a very "individualist" background. Only recently, though (perhaps a bit over a month ago) have I started attending dhikr with a Naqshbandi group. I personally have found with this my own individualistic approach has started to melt away.... I know that when I perform dhikr out loud in a group (as this group does twice a week), often I find myself in a state where the sounds of "Allah Allah" contributed by every single person there drowns out in a sense my own person and I feel I am covered and pierced by "Allah Allah"... this is the best way I can describe it. From this experience, I feel less "individualistic" when I am with this group (but I still feel very "individualistic" with other people in general). I hope this makes sense! :) Also, everyone in this group is from a Turkish background, and in this case all who attend the dhikr are men. I personally still do not feel 100% comfortable with all the hugging and kissing Turkish men indulge in, but I am getting there! :) After Isha prayer (performed after the dhikr), they do a beautiful thing... it is a method where everyone gets to clasp everyone else's hands, and everyone feels closer. (I am the only one there without a Turkish background, I've noticed.... I may have to learn Turkish, because both the Shaykh of this branch of the Naqshbandi - Shaykh Mahmud Es'ad Cosan - and his representative here don't speak English! Also, none of Shaykh Es'ad Cosan's books have been translated either... but, of the 2 tariqas I know of here in Melbourne, Australia, this is the one that *to me* seemed to have more blessing, Allah knows best.) Wassalam, Fred From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 11:43:56 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04129; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 07:01:30 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id GAA10781; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 06:45:19 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id GAA10774; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 06:45:17 -0500 Received: from vx23.cc.monash.edu.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02937; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 06:44:03 -0500 Received: from vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au by vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (PMDF V5.0-4 #8933) id <01HZIGQM75MOI20CSG@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> for tariqas@world.std.com; Mon, 01 Jan 1996 22:43:56 +1100 Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 22:43:56 +1100 From: D A Rice Subject: Cyrano de Bergerac To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HZIGQM7F9UI20CSG@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Cyrano de Bergerac was a man who was kind and gentle inside, but was ugly looking on the outside. One day, he was just walking, minding his own business, when a woman came up to him and began to hurl insults at him for no reason, telling him how horrible and ugly and evil he was. She hurled abuse on him for a long time, and Cyrano was just standing patiently listening to it. When she was finished, Cyrano de Bergerac just bowed to her and said, "And a nice day to you." Cyrano de Bergerac knew that all those words she said, which she thought were the things she saw in him, were really a reflection of herself. This story was told by Shaikh Mahmud Es'ad Cosan (pronounced "Joshan"), a present-day Shaikh of the Naqshbandi Order, as translated to me from Turkish, during his visit to Australia in Dec. 1995. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 12:12:39 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09766; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 07:35:48 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA11351; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 07:15:36 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id HAA11346; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 07:15:35 -0500 Received: from vx23.cc.monash.edu.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05231; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 07:12:47 -0500 Received: from vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au by vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (PMDF V5.0-4 #8933) id <01HZIHP3WUTCI20CSG@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> for tariqas@world.std.com; Mon, 01 Jan 1996 23:12:39 +1100 Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 23:12:39 +1100 From: D A Rice Subject: Abu Yazid al-Bistami and the disciple + comment To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HZIHP3XXEAI20CSG@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A Abu Yazid al-Bistami and the disciple There was a certain ascetic who was one of the great saints of Bestam. He had his own followers and admirers, and at the same time he was never absent from the circle of Abu Yazid al-Bistami. He listened to all his discourses, and sat with his companions. One day he remarked to Abu Yazid, "Master, today is thirty years that I have been keeping constant fast. By night too I pray, so that I never sleep at all. Yet I discover no trace of this knowledge of which you speak. For all that I believe in this knowledge, and I love this preaching." "If for three hundred years," said Abu Yazid, "you fast by day and pray by night, you will never realize one atom of this discourse." "Why?" asked the disciple. "Because you are veiled by your own self," Abu Yazid replied. "What is the remedy for this?" the man asked. "You will never accept it," answered Abu Yazid. "I will so," said the man. "Tell me, so that I may do as you prescribe." "Very well," said Abu Yazid. "This very hour go and shave your beard and hair. Take off these clothes you are wearing, and tie a loincloth of goat's wool about your waist. Hang a bag of nuts around your neck, then go to the marketplace. Collect all the children you can, and tell them, `I will give a nut to everyone who slaps me.' Go round all the city in the same way; especially go everywhere people know you. That is your cure." "Glory be to God! There is no god but God," cried the disciple on hearing these words. "If a nonbeliever uttered that formula, he would become a believer," remarked Abu Yazid. "By uttering the same formula you have become a polytheist." "How so?" demanded the disciple. "Because you count yourself too grand to be able to do as I have said," replied Abu Yazid. "So you have become a polytheist. You used this formula to express your own importance, not to glorify God." "This I cannot do," the man protested. "Give me other directions." "The remedy is what I have said," Abu Yazid declared. "I cannot do it," the man repeated. "Did I not say you would not do it, that you would never obey me?" said Abu Yazid. [From the "Memorial of the Saints" of Fariduddin Attar.] ======================================================================= My comment: Recently, I spent a day with Shaykh Mahmud Es'ad Cosan, of the Naqshbandi Sufi order. We (as a group) went on a picnic. During that picnic, we were walking around with the Shaykh, when he proceeded on to some playground equipment, and we followed him. After pausing a short time, he motioned to one man, with his hands, for him to slide down the slide. He hesitated, to be sure, and upon receive confirmation he slid down the slide. Soon, we all followed him down the slide, laughing hysterically at how silly we all must have looked, a bunch of mature adults, from a boy in his teens to people in their 50's, sliding down this children's slide! After this, some of us (including me) spied one of those twisting slides, and we raced up that and slid down! Meanwhile, Shaykh Es'ad had gone to a kind of 4-way seesaw and began to seesaw back and forth with 3 others! My personal experience of this, was it broke some kind of barrier in me. Often, as adults, we feel too "proud" to do something like slide down a children's slide! But we have to break this pride in ourselves, and rediscover the youthful fun-loving child within! From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 16:01:09 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28846; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 11:17:05 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA19697; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 10:56:10 -0500 Received: from goodguy.goodnet.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA19686; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 10:56:07 -0500 Received: from primenet.primenet.com (phx-ts1-23.goodnet.com [206.149.176.56]) by goodguy.goodnet.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA10560 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 08:52:09 -0700 Message-Id: <30E80545.3BF4@goodnet.com> Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 09:01:09 -0700 From: Abdual Alim X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b3 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullai wa barakatuh! I have just started my learning of the Sufi way three years ago and come from a Westernerpoint of view. What I for the most part do not like about the american way of spirituality is the sheepishly way people following without question or looking for truth. For the most part people her in american take the leaders information at face value and if past examples of this do not have ending that I like. I without question want to ask question talk about everything going on in my life to include my dreams. Wassalam, Abdual Alim (Alan G. Keyes) From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 12:25:56 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06308; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 12:53:10 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA25409; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 12:30:15 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA25401; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 12:30:13 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26534; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 12:26:57 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 12:26:56 +0001 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Abu Yazid al-Bistami and the disciple + comment To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: <01HZIHP3XXEAI20CSG@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. Wonderful stories! (the disciple who was too proud to learn, the modern day Shaykh who is teaching his students to play). A true Shaykh is one who can identify the lessons needed by his/her students, and give them as appropriate. These lessons often have to do with attaining balance in our lives. Insh'Allah, we can all learn to also identify and learn from those lessons given by the ultimate Shaykh -- Allah. Yours, habib From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 12:43:55 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10871; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:06:59 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA26709; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 12:45:47 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA26691; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 12:45:43 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03987; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 12:44:55 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 12:44:55 +0001 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: <30E80545.3BF4@goodnet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 1 Jan 1996, Abdual Alim wrote: > Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullai wa barakatuh! > > I have just started my learning of the Sufi way three years ago and come > from a Westernerpoint of view. What I for the most part do not like > about the american way of spirituality is the sheepishly way people > following without question or looking for truth. For the most part > people her in american take the leaders information at face value and if > past examples of this do not have ending that I like. I without > question want to ask question talk about everything going on in my life > to include my dreams. > There seem to often be apparent contradictions (paradoxes) in people's nature. For example, Americans (and Westerners to some degree) think of themselves as individualists, and are in some ways. However, they also tend to be very susceptible to cults where they loose all their individuality and critical thinking skills. Perhaps they are really seeking balance? Is there a way of benefitting from positive aspects of a relationship to a teacher and to membership in a tariqa without loosing the ability to make independent judgements when necessary? Can submitting to a teacher facilitate individual growth? Under what conditions? Is individual growth the goal? When am I going to shut up and allow others to answer my questions? :-) Habib Rose From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 12:59:53 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17977; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:24:45 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA28151; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:05:40 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA28135; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:05:37 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08630; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:00:54 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:00:53 +0001 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Please don't send carbon copys of messages to tariqas! To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. Please try to be very careful not to send carbon copys (cc) of messages to tariqas -- this results in duplication to everybody on the list. Thanks! habib rose From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 18:21:40 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23540; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:39:41 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA29269; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:20:33 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA29264; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:20:31 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id NAA01696 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:20:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.105]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 14:31:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960101182140.002ee5e4@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 13:21:40 -0500 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:01 AM 1/1/96 -0700, Abdual Alim wrote: >Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullai wa barakatuh! > >I have just started my learning of the Sufi way three years ago and come >from a Westernerpoint of view. What I for the most part do not like >about the american way of spirituality is the sheepishly way people >following without question or looking for truth. Try this way! What is to be done O Moslems? for I do not recognize myself I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr , nor Moslem. I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the sea; I am not of nature's mint, nor of the circling heavens. I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire; I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of entity. I am not of India, nor China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin ; I am not of the kingdom of Iraqain, nor of the country of Khorasan . I am not of this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell; I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan . My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless; 'Tis neither body nor soul, for I belong to the soul of the Beloved Jallalludin Rumi Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 18:21:43 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23378; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:39:14 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA29283; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:20:38 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA29275; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:20:35 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id NAA01700 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 13:20:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.105]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 14:31:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960101182143.002da7fc@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 13:21:43 -0500 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 09:01 AM 1/1/96 -0700, Abdual Alim wrote: >Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullai wa barakatuh! > >I have just started my learning of the Sufi way three years ago and come >from a Westernerpoint of view. What I for the most part do not like >about the american way of spirituality is the sheepishly way people >following without question or looking for truth. For the most part >people her in american take the leaders information at face value and if >past examples of this do not have ending that I like. I without >question want to ask question talk about everything going on in my life >to include my dreams. > OR TRY THIS WAY! SONG OF THE SOUL I am neither ego nor reason, I am neither mind nor thought, I cannot be heard nor cast into words nor by smell nor sight ever caught: In light and wind I am not found, nor yet in earth and sky - Consciousness and joy incarnate, Bliss of the Blissful am I. I have no name, I have no life, I breathe no vital air, No elements have molded me, no bodily sheath is my lair; I have no speech, no hands and feet, nor means of evolution - Consciousness and joy am I, and bliss in dissolution. I cast aside hatred and passion, I conquered delusion and greed; No touch of pride caressed me, so envy never did breed; Beyond all faiths, past reach of wealth, past freedom, past desire, Consciousness and Joy am I, and bliss is my attire. Virtue and vice, or pleasure and pain are not my heritage, nor sacred texts, nor offerings, nor prayer, nor pilgrimage; I am neither food, nor eating, nor yet the eater am I - Consciousness and joy incarnate, Bliss of the Blissful am I. I have no misgiving of death, no chasms of race divide me, No parent ever called me child, no bond of birth ever tied me; I am neither disciple nor master, I have no kin, no friend - Consciousness and joy am I, and merging in Bliss is my end. Neither knowable, knowledge, nor knower am I, formless is my form, I dwell within the senses but they are not my home; Ever serenely balanced, I am neither free nor bound - Consciousness and joy am I, and Bliss is where I am found. SANKARACHARYA Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 22:06:35 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20641; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 17:27:51 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA17306; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 17:06:40 -0500 Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA17287; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 17:06:35 -0500 From: ASHA101@aol.com Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA23052 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 17:06:35 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 17:06:35 -0500 Message-Id: <960101170634_103758308@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: postings and individual/communal Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A Dear Habib, you strike an interesting note - >>>Insh'Allah, tariqas can serve as a vehicle for us to learn to understand and appreciate our different approaches to spiritual growth -- and our own biases as well.<<<< Insh'Allah, Tariqas does not become a competition for who can post the most writting of their teacher, who who can honor their theacher the most! That to me is individualism which carries no respect for any other individual. Maybe this culture does value the individual freedom more highly than some other cultures, I'm not sure that is bad at all. Perhaps the most difficult thing to learn in excercising individual freedom is to respect the boundaries of the Other. I put the word 'other' in caps, because the ultimate other is the Divine Other, the acceptance of Whom leads to oneness, the domination of Whom will keep one forever from oneness. I think that your comment >>>it is the foundation of tariqas that people share what they want (within the bounds of Netiquette/Adab, Insh'Allah).<<< says this with great wisdom. Also, you strike an interesting theme in posing the communal/individual question. This dual focus may actually reveal, underlying these poles, core values. I mean, individuality or comunality are not good or bad in themselves but can be argued to be good or useful only with respect to value of which they represent one pole. One of these values is the value of freedom with respect to fulfilment, unfoldment and purpose; the other is a value that is perhaps more Eastern, could it be honor? I think it can be shown that while freedom is valued in the East, it is generally not a core vlaue there. I'm not positive what the more eastern value is, and therefore not sure wether those in the west share it as a core value or not. The point is, though, that in either case (honor or freedom) obviously both a sense of comunality/hierarchy and individuality need to exist and achieve a balance. Both, also, need thier boundaries. Such arguments as clarity and heart, sucinctness and love, simply represent these two poles and again both need to be present and in ballance inorder for the underlying ideal to be truely alive. This is what sufis have allways done, (to, more or less, quote a friend) when the sufis follow both the path of faith (iman) and infidelity (kufr), prayer and spilling wine on the prayer carpet, the God-ideal and shattering it, morality, piety and laughing at the sanctimonious mullas with Nasruddin Hojja, experiencing the holy presence of ancient masters and "a loaf of bread a book of verse and thou" Asha From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 1 22:26:50 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28325; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 17:47:12 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA18749; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 17:26:51 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA18744; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 17:26:49 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01HZI3ICKZDI90NTQM@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Mon, 01 Jan 1996 16:26:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 16:26:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <01HZI3ICKZDK90NTQM@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@facteur.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A The problem for any individual, whether from an individualist or communalist society, is learning that obedience and humility go together, and that there is an elemental difference between submission and submissiveness. =Mackie Blanton= From Majordomo-Owner@world.std.com Tue Jan 2 14:07:29 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22734; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 09:07:30 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA25039; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 09:07:29 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 09:07:29 -0500 Message-Id: <199601021407.JAA25039@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: Majordomo@world.std.com Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE tariqas Reply-To: Majordomo@world.std.com Status: RO X-Status: -- mfoster@tyrell.net has unsubscribed from tariqas. No action is required on your part. From Majordomo-Owner@world.std.com Tue Jan 2 16:09:27 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19953; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:09:28 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA11923; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:09:27 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:09:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199601021609.LAA11923@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: Majordomo@world.std.com Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE tariqas Reply-To: Majordomo@world.std.com Status: RO X-Status: -- 72642.3105@compuserve.com has unsubscribed from tariqas. No action is required on your part. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 03:20:14 1996 Received: from relay7.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02478; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 12:03:16 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwuf19849; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:27:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA04984; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:08:16 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA04971; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:08:13 -0500 From: MGESTMail@aol.com Received: from relay4.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14473; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 09:42:18 -0500 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwsj17929; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 22:22:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id WAA29493; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 22:20:14 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 Jan 1996 22:20:14 -0500 Message-Id: <960101222014_29225708@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com, gnosis@netcom.com Cc: sufi@thinknet.com, cherag-l@sandelman.onix.on.ca Subject: Free House Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 95-12-30 21:36:33 EST, you write: >Another Free house! This one in Northern Calif. The last one we > put on this list will go to a Mureed in Seattle next week, > Inshallah. This one is definitely NOT a fixer upper. It is in one of >the nicest subdivisions and certainly best maintained PUDs. > >Hot Tub and private lake dock. With Cabana on the lake and one at >the pool. >2 Bdr 2 Bath in vacation area known as Clearlake in Lake county. This > house was recently on the market for 99,000. The seller would > pay moving and closing expenses for anyone interested in this well >maintined clean clean home. >No money down and payments could be as low as 500 per month. Will >consider lease option also. This is aproximately one hour north of > Santa Rosa. > >If you might be interested in something in your area let me > know and I will look through the inventory. The next one we offer >will be in Vallejo Calif. 15 minutes from San Raphael, Marin County > and in the Northbay area of San Francisco, 45 Minutes from Berkely and >55 minutes from San Francisco. This could be a good communal home. > There are two others in Solano county and one possibly in Sonoma >County. contact Michael Gest here and phone is 707 829 3275. > >Free means that it is possible to buy this house with no money > down and that you could have an automatic equity of atleast 10,000 >dollars that we will give as your down payment and you will have no > closing costs. > > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 16:58:21 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19897; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 12:27:03 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA21414; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:58:26 -0500 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA21380; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:58:22 -0500 From: NurLuna@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA22306 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:58:21 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:58:21 -0500 Message-Id: <960102115820_82493777@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Greetings of Love and Light! In a message dated 96-01-01, Mackie Blanton wrote: > The problem for any individual, whether from an individualist or >communalist society, is learning that obedience and humility go together, >and that there is an elemental difference between submission and >submissiveness. As others have said, Westerners, Americans in particular, look askance at anything or anyone suggesting that true freedom lies in submission, perhaps more so than Easterners, perhaps not. Most of the so-called cults that take hold here have a charismatic leader going his or her "own way", usually against some sort of enemy which only s/he knows how to defeat, enlisting other soldiers for the battle. This can be very attractive to the fanatically individualistic American seeker! One reason why the cult of fundamentalism is so rampant right now in Christianity, in my opinion. I was intrigued by your last statement, friend Mackie. Perhaps you could share with us your experience of the difference between submission and submissiveness? your sister Farrunnissa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 16:58:18 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23130; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 12:31:54 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA21381; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:58:23 -0500 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA21349; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:58:19 -0500 From: NurLuna@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA23911 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:58:18 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 11:58:18 -0500 Message-Id: <960102115818_82493760@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: posting of writings Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: As-salaam aleikum, tariqas family! May blessings of Peace and Joy light your new year! I would vote for a Web page repository of brother Faoud's translations. (Thank you, Brother, for your work of love!) Faoud could let us know when there was new material available, and a little about the topic, in a posting to tariqas. Those who don't have Web access could request an email copy if they wanted to read it. My continued thanks to brother Habib Rose for his gentle, centered, caring stewardship of this mailing list. Ya Azim! Farrunnissa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 19:23:50 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14734; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 15:00:08 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA12975; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 14:23:56 -0500 Received: from relay3.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA12970; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 14:23:53 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwuv01146; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 14:23:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA07326 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 14:23:50 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 14:23:50 -0500 Message-Id: <960102142348_82559016@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: hello Habib, great questions. I've never felt that you clogged the airwaves (bandwidth) with noise. I always look forward to reading postings from you. thanks Jinavamsa In a message dated 96-01-01 12:46:28 EST, you write: > Perhaps they are really seeking >balance? Is there a way of benefitting from positive aspects of a >relationship to a teacher and to membership in a tariqa without loosing >the ability to make independent judgements when necessary? Can >submitting to a teacher facilitate individual growth? Under what >conditions? Is individual growth the goal? When am I going to shut up >and allow others to answer my questions? :-) > >Habib Rose > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 06:20:13 1996 Received: from relay4.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23590; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 15:14:20 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwug22177; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:33:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA05641; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:10:26 -0500 Received: from relay6.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA05598; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:10:21 -0500 Received: from goodguy.goodnet.com by relay6.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwsv02543; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 01:18:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from primenet.primenet.com (phx-ts2-17.goodnet.com [206.149.176.82]) by goodguy.goodnet.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA23083 for ; Mon, 1 Jan 1996 23:11:18 -0700 Message-Id: <30E8CE9C.EAC@goodnet.com> Date: Mon, 01 Jan 1996 23:20:13 -0700 From: Abdual Alim X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0b3 (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "tariqas@europe.std.com" Subject: re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I a whileago was a member of the Rosicrucian before I became a muslim then s member of a sufi order. I was not happy with the group mindframe that the Rosicucian which I did not seem to grow. I was toald about this level of energy that I was to reach were I would have do dream which would mean that I would have left my body and was in there realm learning form them. I did not reach any new spirituality until I joined with the sufi order and got away from my ego. I found real balance with the Quran and other teaching given to me on this new path. I do feel that I have overcome the question of relationship to teacher and membership in a tariqa because it is based on a independent need for growth without losing that this growth can only happen when one gives up thier personal ego and find Allah love and path to Allah. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 06:53:52 1996 Received: from relay4.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23609; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 15:14:21 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwug22094; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:32:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA05098; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:08:39 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA05064; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 10:08:35 -0500 Received: from relay2.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28996; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 09:55:14 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net by relay2.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzwsx22247; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 01:53:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id BAA03508 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 01:53:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.106]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 3:04:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960102065352.002dc780@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 01:53:52 -0500 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Cyrano de Bergerac Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 10:43 PM 1/1/96 +1100, D A Rice wrote: > >Cyrano de Bergerac was a man who was kind and gentle inside, but >was ugly looking on the outside. One day, he was just walking, >minding his own business, when Attention is invited to the WEAVER magazine. One of the articles in past months was about Cyrano de Bergerac by Hazrat Inayat Khan. The URL for the magazine is: http://hyperlink.com:9000/weaver/ Many interesting articles and anicely designed. Warm regards, Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 20:33:37 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21964; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 16:01:18 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA20669; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 15:20:43 -0500 Received: from tns.sdsu.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA20661; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 15:20:39 -0500 Received: from mail.sdsu.edu (mail.sdsu.edu [130.191.1.31]) by tns.sdsu.edu (8.7.1/8.6.11) with ESMTP id MAA00526 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 12:24:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [130.191.21.57] ([130.191.21.57]) by mail.sdsu.edu (8.7.1/8.6.11) with SMTP id MAA19025 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 12:22:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 12:33:37 -0800 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: mhermans@mail.sdsu.edu (marcia hermansen) Subject: Re: Free House Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Michael, Your postings about houses were very timely for me. I had been thinking of contacting you because-in sha Allah-I want to get a living space in the Bay Area. I look forward to being in touch and discussing the matter further. aw-s-salam, Marcia Hermansen From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 21:34:50 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06830; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 17:03:24 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA03051; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 16:27:39 -0500 Received: from cornell.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA03016; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 16:27:33 -0500 Received: from orie.cornell.edu (PIVOT.ORIE.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.138.201]) by cornell.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA05674 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 16:35:44 -0500 Received: by orie.cornell.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03098; Tue, 2 Jan 96 16:34:50 EST Date: Tue, 2 Jan 96 16:34:50 EST From: johara@orie.cornell.edu (Johara Shahabuddin) Message-Id: <9601022134.AA03098@orie.cornell.edu> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear everyone, Salaam aleikum. I think I am individualistic coz I feel apart from already formed communities and have not been able to find myself a significant other despite my years in this world...I like spending time alone to the surprise and sometimes disapproval of friends (who think that spending time with them will make me less `neurotic')...but I have a lovely community of friends here around me, though its not religious, its an intimate and fulfilling one. Sometimes I find myself agreeing and sometimes disagreeing with what a friend thinks, or speaking honestly or keeping my opinion reserved, telling all or telling selectively...sometimes I act in a way another wishes me to act against my intuition (trying not to forsake my judgement but often quite automatically), and sometimes disagreeing with them and saying nope, cant do that. And to me all these decisions are somehow questions of submission. Is submitting to one's teacher the only problem? I think that each act of ours is in a greater `submission' or in blindness or in hypocrisy. I dont have a teacher, but am being tortured by the `Submit' of the Book. I feel that every time one makes a decision to follow the teacher against one's own wishes and in suspension of rationality, one should do so consciously...each such decision is a road to learning if carefully considered before, after it is made. Submission that comes too easily could be `hypocrisy', and if not carefully thought about and worked through, could be `blindness'(submissiveness?). At least this is true for me who is troubled by and thinks round and round in circles when faced with contradictions in my thinking and my behaviour. I think there are no people who can submit easily, or once and for all. The questions for all of us may be different, but ignoring them makes the person regress spiritually. I think one should take the question in hand and nurse it, even while one makes decisions without having arised at its answer. (I loved Paul's poem that seemed to be talking about this.) But these contradictions within oneself and without: between oneself and others- can take awfully long to be resolved and are painful if one makes oneself stay awake and listen to them; so in the meantime one just has to bear the pain of submission without the answers. To me the only option to this awful pain is the awfuller one to not do anything at all to get at having answers. I read a book by Scott Peck about his experiments with community and liked it, called A Different Drum. (Although I didnt like the `quick community' that he seemed to be offering his clients who got together for these experiments.) One idea he offers: he says that at first when people get together, there is a false community feeling...everyone is nice to one another and so on. And then slowly a boredom builds up that leads to a low energy, depressive state for the community...because differences that arise are being trivially discarded...and slowly this builds up into a stage of conflict where if the conflict is worked through and resolved, there arrives a sense of true community. He perceives this process to be more accepting of individuals in the `true community' stage, and leads to growth of the individuals in it...whereas if a group is stuck in the initial `false' stage, then individuality tends to be lost. There must be some people out there who have read this work already so I apologise if I have repeated something they already know. I think this addresses submissiveness too. This is my perspective...and I'm looking forward to others writing about all this, so I can find a cleaner one... Johara From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 23:11:51 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14520; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 18:43:53 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA16792; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 18:11:52 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA16783; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 18:11:49 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01HZJII545M890OU26@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Tue, 02 Jan 1996 17:11:51 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 17:11:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <01HZJII5587690OU26@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@facteur.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Johara's recent posting (2-Jan-1996 16:03:40:80) nicely typifies not only the concundrum we find ourselves in when we forget that obedience and humility are a pair, and the conundrum that we find ourselves in we don't distinguish between submission and submissiveness--she seems to be self-reflective enough to know when she is losing humility and when she just can't seem to submit. Her text is worth saving. In English we have the one verb *to submit*. So we tend to conflate the two nouns that we can form from this verb, submission and submissiveness, as if they were synonymous. But they are not, even though they will translate back into Arabic as *'abd*. Understanding the difference amounts to be able to feel willingly like a servant and against our will like a slave. The Book asks us to submit to Allah, to give The Holy One Blessed Be He our complete sumission, to be His servant. Having given us a free will, God does not, apparently (Inshallah), expect for us to slavishly submit to His Will, to give Him unthinking submissiveness. Within islam, this distinction can often be lost or obscured just because Islam makes no distinction between a sin and a crime. Hence, because a sin is also a crime, and because severe crimes demand severe punishment, sins also demand and require severe punishment, especially, for example, apostasy. Individualist Westerners often view this conflation of sin and crime as undemocratic, which means that even if they are Sufis who emrace The holy Qur'aan, ghey may not be Sufis who embrace the Sharia. Their Western orientation does not make it easy from them to see the difference between being a servant of God and His Kalaam and being a slave. In monotheism, when you are a servant, you are a servant *of* and *to* God. This quality that is asked of you is one that also asks you to understand that obdience requires humility of individualist spirit. Humility + Obedience means that we understand that we should not put ourselves above our teacher--even when we sense something askew in a teacher's request, requirement, lesson, desire. The problem here, of course, lies in being able to discern the difference between authentic belief and a cultic practice. This offers a challenge to Sufism, which to many seems to lack authentic Orthodoxy. So how can we demonstrate that Ibn 'Arabi is as Orthodox as the Prophet (PBUH), who understood obdience, humility, and submission well enough never to put themselves--nor their soul, nor the soul of their soul--above The Godhead? =Mackie Blanton= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 2 23:14:05 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17154; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 18:47:49 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA17554; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 18:14:12 -0500 Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA17479; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 18:14:03 -0500 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA20573; Tue, 2 Jan 96 15:13:55 PST Received: from antares by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 2 Jan 96 15:13:55 PST Received: from kirin.Tymnet.COM by antares.Tymnet.COM (8.6.5/UCB) id PAA19997; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 15:13:53 -0800 Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA00409; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 15:14:05 -0800 Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 15:14:05 -0800 From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore) Message-Id: <9601022314.AA00409@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > I dont have a teacher, but am being tortured by the `Submit' of the Book. What do you mean?, Which book? How can a Book torture you? > The questions for all > of us may be different, but ignoring them makes the person regress > spiritually. Surely on the path we must ignore all questions and we must regress spiritually. Blessed are the poor in spirit.......... To entertain a question implies that you believe you have an answer. We have nothing. Even this statement is wrong. I suggest you find a teacher and don't listen to my advice. > This is my perspective...and I'm looking forward to others writing > about all this, so I can find a cleaner one... > Johara > -michael- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 00:04:44 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23894; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:43:45 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA26930; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:04:51 -0500 Received: from relay1.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA26925; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:04:48 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwvo23801; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:04:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA14416 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:04:44 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:04:44 -0500 Message-Id: <960102190443_82716387@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re Teachers [was Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth] Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: dear Johara, Mackie, Michael, and others, Re this question of submissive vs. submission, I find this discussion very good in that it is is raising more questions than giving answers. Let me raise some comments in context, below. I'll precede them by @@ to mark them out. I am asking these not to criticize but to learn of your thinking more clearly (and so to be able to apply them more helpfully in the context of a spiritual life). Jinavamsa CONSIDERING POST 1 of 2 RELATED POSTS: In a message dated 96-01-02 18:15:16 EST, you write: >Subj: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth >Date: 96-01-02 18:15:16 EST >From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu >To: tariqas@europe.std.com > Johara's recent posting (2-Jan-1996 16:03:40:80) nicely typifies >not only the concundrum we find ourselves in when we forget that obedience >and humility are a pair, and the conundrum that we find ourselves in we >don't distinguish between submission and submissiveness--she seems to be >self-reflective enough to know when she is losing humility and when she >just can't seem to submit. Her text is worth saving. > In English we have the one verb *to submit*. So we tend to conflate >the two nouns that we can form from this verb, submission and submissiveness, >as if they were synonymous. But they are not, even though they will >translate >back into Arabic as *'abd*. Understanding the difference amounts to be able >to feel willingly like a servant and against our will like a slave. The Book @@I was expecting to find you cite two Arabic verbs that would aid you in differentiating between the (putative) two senses you are trying to separate here. >asks us to submit to Allah, to give The Holy One Blessed Be He our complete >sumission, to be His servant. Having given us a free will, God does not, >apparently (Inshallah), expect for us to slavishly submit to His Will, to >give Him unthinking submissiveness. @@Does this mean that you take Him (I thought Allah was a noun that had no plural and did not stand as either a masculine or a feminine, but that's a secondary issue here.) to be expecting us to give Him "thinking submissiveness". That may be, and if so, I would be interested to learn more of what this "thinking submissiveness" is. That would make the key contrast here in the two senses to be the difference between acting thinkingly vs. doing so unthinkingly (to make up two adverbs for this situation). Is that your point? > Within islam, this distinction can often be lost or obscured just >because Islam makes no distinction between a sin and a crime. Hence, because >a sin is also a crime, and because severe crimes demand severe punishment, >sins also demand and require severe punishment, especially, for example, @@The importance and severe consequences of this assumption about the "demand" for severe punishment cannot be played with lightly. >apostasy. Individualist Westerners often view this conflation of sin and >crime as undemocratic, which means that even if they are Sufis who emrace @@ I don't see what's either democratic or undemocratic about the equation of sin and crime (or their conflation, as you express it). What supposed confusion are you alluding to here? >The holy Qur'aan, ghey [=they?] may not be Sufis who embrace the Sharia. Their >Western orientation does not make it easy from them to see the difference >between being a servant of God and His Kalaam and being a slave. In @@so this would be a good place to make clear what that difference is, in what it consists of, for those of "Western orientation" that do not see this clearly yet. >monotheism, when you are a servant, you are a servant *of* and *to* God. >This quality that is asked of you is one that also asks you to understand >that obdience requires humility of individualist spirit. > Humility + Obedience means that we understand that we should not >put ourselves above our teacher--even when we sense something askew in a >teacher's request, requirement, lesson, desire. @@ Is this based on an equation of the will of Allah with the instructions from a teacher? > The problem here, of course, lies in being able to discern the >difference between authentic belief and a cultic practice. This offers >a challenge to Sufism, which to many seems to lack authentic Orthodoxy. So >how can we demonstrate that Ibn 'Arabi is as Orthodox as the Prophet (PBUH), >who understood obdience, humility, and submission well enough never to put >themselves--nor their soul, nor the soul of their soul--above The Godhead? @@I think this issue has been touched upon earlier last year (1995), but in this context, let me ask: Given the weightiness of this form of Godhead-liness (or Truth, if I can use that word without having my hands and feet cut off `a la Mansour), the issue on some very practical level becomes this: how is it that governments run by human beings take it upon themselves to carry out their interpretation of the way Allah would read a given situation? and this, with the confidence to be ready to end human life and intervene in other rather intense ways with the lives of those it sees, as you put it, as "committing crimes aka sinning"? >=Mackie Blanton= CONSIDERING POST 2 of 2 RELATED POSTS: In a message dated 96-01-02 18:16:43 EST, you write: >Subj: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth >Date: 96-01-02 18:16:43 EST >From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore) >To: tariqas@europe.std.com >> I dont have a teacher, but am being tortured by the `Submit' of the Book. >What do you mean?, Which book? How can a Book torture you? >> The questions for all of us may be different, but ignoring them makes the person >> regress spiritually. >Surely on the path we must ignore all questions and we must regress >spiritually. Blessed are the poor in spirit.......... @@ I find this difficult to follow. Are the two of you talking about the same sense of spiritual regress? I had the feeling that there was a big shift happening here. >To entertain a question implies that you believe you have an >answer. We have nothing. Even this statement is wrong. @@Is this suggesting that it is wrong to entertain questions? >I suggest you find a teacher and don't listen to my advice. @@ If the question is about what this entire process is, and what is the best (most authentic, yearning for the Truth, not "unthinking" [as per above post] submissiveness, your suggestion reads more like a wish that Johara not have the question she/he has, than an answer that would aid her/him in resolving whatever issues or concerns are being expressed in the original post here. Or am I misreading you? >> This is my perspective...and I'm looking forward to others writing >> about all this, so I can find a cleaner one... >> Johara >> >-michael- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 01:13:52 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13078; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 20:17:04 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA06408; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 20:17:03 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11086; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 20:13:52 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA05968; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 20:13:52 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 20:13:52 -0500 Message-Id: <199601030113.UAA05968@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Tue Jan 2 20:13:49 1996 Return-Path: Received: from relay4.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA05946; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 20:13:48 -0500 From: SLSattler@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by relay4.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwvs23593; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 20:13:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA08218 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 20:13:44 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 20:13:44 -0500 Message-ID: <960102201340_82760365@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@europe.std.com Subject: Unsubscribe unsubscribe From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 01:32:26 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03062; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 20:55:04 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA08376; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 20:32:32 -0500 Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA08362; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 20:32:21 -0500 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA12614; Tue, 2 Jan 96 17:32:18 PST Received: from antares by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 2 Jan 96 17:32:17 PST Received: from kirin.Tymnet.COM by antares.Tymnet.COM (8.6.5/UCB) id RAA21636; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 17:32:14 -0800 Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA00475; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 17:32:26 -0800 Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 17:32:26 -0800 From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore) Message-Id: <9601030132.AA00475@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Re Teachers [was Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth] X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >> I dont have a teacher, but am being tortured by the `Submit' of the Book. > >What do you mean?, Which book? How can a Book torture you? > >> The questions for all of us may be different, but ignoring them makes the > person >> regress spiritually. > >Surely on the path we must ignore all questions and we must regress > >spiritually. Blessed are the poor in spirit.......... > > @@ I find this difficult to follow. Exactly my point! > Are the two of you talking about the same > sense of spiritual regress? I think so, only I am also point out that any feeling of spiritual progress is also spiritual regress and only true spiritual regress can lead to spiritual progress. >I had the feeling that there was a big shift > happening here. You are very astute. > > >To entertain a question implies that you believe you have an > >answer. We have nothing. Even this statement is wrong. > > @@Is this suggesting that it is wrong to entertain questions? Wrong towards what end? Will entertaining questions please Allah? I doubt it. And if it is not for the pleasure of Allah, what good is it? Nobody has ever found answers of what lies beyond the illusion by entertaining questions. Questions themselves only exist within the illusion and can only result in answers that have meaning within the illusion. I assume that we are not talking about mundane questions and answers. By stopping all questions you can find the truth. > > >I suggest you find a teacher and don't listen to my advice. > > @@ If the question is about what this entire process is, and what is the best > (most authentic, yearning for the Truth, not "unthinking" [as per above post] > submissiveness, your suggestion reads more like a wish that Johara not have > the question she/he has, than an answer that would aid her/him in resolving > whatever issues or concerns are being expressed in the original post here. > Or am I misreading you? > You nailed it. -michael- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 03:52:21 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18074; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 23:10:57 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA24940; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 22:52:05 -0500 Received: from miwok.nbn.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA24929; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 22:52:02 -0500 Received: from [199.174.179.188] (dd47-188.compuserve.com [199.174.179.188]) by miwok.nbn.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA05884; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:51:51 -0800 X-Sender: olh@mail.nbn.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:52:21 -0800 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, tariqas@world.std.com From: olh@hyperback.com (Bob Olhsson) Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A At 12:33 PM 12/31/95, Steve H Rose wrote: >Assalamu alaikum. ... >My hypothesis is that some of us, partly from being "Westerners," partly >from our own psychological states, tend to approach spirituality from the >point of individual experience -- and to be threatened by truly becoming >part of a collective entity (afraid of losing our identity or control, >perhaps). Others of us, partly from being from more traditional >cultures, partly from our own psychological states, tend to approach >spirituality from the collective/communcal point of view -- to see our >growth as intricately related to the growth of others in our group, and >perhaps to the leadership of a "master" -- and to be threatened by truly >pursuing our individual experience (afraid of losing our identity as part >of the group, or the control that comes from the group, perhaps). We are, in truth, always both individuals and collective societies. The key is to "grow" our identity to encompass both aspects rather than denying one or the other. There can be no alternative to Allah's entire truth no matter how hard we try to define ourselves as being less than that by identifying with our differences rather than with our commonality. Bob Bob Olhsson Audio | O tongue, thou art a olh@hyperback.com | treasure without end. P.O. Box 555 | And, O tongue, thou art also a Novato, CA 94948-0555 | disease without remedy. 415.457.2620 | 415.456.1496 FAX | == Jelal'uddin Rumi == From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 03:52:21 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22221; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 23:18:02 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA25487; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 22:57:28 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA25467; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 22:57:25 -0500 Received: from miwok.nbn.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09414; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 22:52:37 -0500 Received: from [199.174.179.188] (dd47-188.compuserve.com [199.174.179.188]) by miwok.nbn.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA05884; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:51:51 -0800 X-Sender: olh@mail.nbn.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:52:21 -0800 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, tariqas@world.std.com From: olh@hyperback.com (Bob Olhsson) Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 12:33 PM 12/31/95, Steve H Rose wrote: >Assalamu alaikum. ... >My hypothesis is that some of us, partly from being "Westerners," partly >from our own psychological states, tend to approach spirituality from the >point of individual experience -- and to be threatened by truly becoming >part of a collective entity (afraid of losing our identity or control, >perhaps). Others of us, partly from being from more traditional >cultures, partly from our own psychological states, tend to approach >spirituality from the collective/communcal point of view -- to see our >growth as intricately related to the growth of others in our group, and >perhaps to the leadership of a "master" -- and to be threatened by truly >pursuing our individual experience (afraid of losing our identity as part >of the group, or the control that comes from the group, perhaps). We are, in truth, always both individuals and collective societies. The key is to "grow" our identity to encompass both aspects rather than denying one or the other. There can be no alternative to Allah's entire truth no matter how hard we try to define ourselves as being less than that by identifying with our differences rather than with our commonality. Bob Bob Olhsson Audio | O tongue, thou art a olh@hyperback.com | treasure without end. P.O. Box 555 | And, O tongue, thou art also a Novato, CA 94948-0555 | disease without remedy. 415.457.2620 | 415.456.1496 FAX | == Jelal'uddin Rumi == From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 03:52:09 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20589; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 23:16:00 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA24912; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 22:51:54 -0500 Received: from miwok.nbn.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA24900; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 22:51:49 -0500 Received: from [199.174.179.188] (dd47-188.compuserve.com [199.174.179.188]) by miwok.nbn.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA05842 for ; Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:51:38 -0800 X-Sender: olh@mail.nbn.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 19:52:09 -0800 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: olh@hyperback.com (Bob Olhsson) Subject: Re: posting of writings Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I, for one, would rather see more stories posted from various orders as fuel for discussion as long as it is clearly titled as such. I do far better being presented with a passage than I do going looking for one. The bandwidth and attention involved is trivial compared to the kind of delete key effort that "feel-good" and "me-too" conversational trivia requires. It is true that there has been little discussion lately but that is the simple result of what the rest of us have failed to do! >On Thu, 28 Dec 1995, Abdkabir wrote: > >> I heartily second the motion expressed below by Asha. If people cannot >> afford the books, then Faoud should once a month say, limit his messages >> regarding book chapters to merely announcing that such materials are >> available at their web site. This usual Naqsbandi-Nazim aggressiveness in >> advertising their "sheik" by dumping bandwidth-eating book chapters onto >> this group with such tedious regularity ought not to be tolerated by the >> sponser of this list, unless he has changed his mission statement, which >> we should be informed about if he has. It seems the more we have been >> silent about Faoud's data dumping practices, the more he appears >> emboldened to increase the size and frequency of the dumps...and >> undoubtedly giving the impression, especially to new subscribers of this >> group, that its primary purpose is to serve as a free advertisng medium >> for the writings of Sheik Nazim and extending, with locust-like >> persistance, the reach of his followers. >> Bob Olhsson Audio | O tongue, thou art a olh@hyperback.com | treasure without end. P.O. Box 555 | And, O tongue, thou art also a Novato, CA 94948-0555 | disease without remedy. 415.457.2620 | 415.456.1496 FAX | == Jelal'uddin Rumi == From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 05:18:22 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01286; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 00:35:13 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA04666; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 00:18:30 -0500 Received: from relay1.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA04657; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 00:18:26 -0500 From: JHulvey@aol.com Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwwj23128; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 00:18:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA13706 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 00:18:22 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 00:18:22 -0500 Message-Id: <960103001741_30312138@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: JHulvey@aol.com Subject: Re: Re Teachers [was Re: Indi... Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Ironically, when you tell a person there is no room for a question, you are providing a answer to a question that they didn't ask (of you). I feel that a question that is held honestly and openly in the heart may be better than thinking one knows the answer if one's closure is premature, even if that answer is about questions, by which presumably is meant all questions. (Sorry if this sounds like an answer -- it's more of a question though you may have to take my word on that.) >From my last notes to the list, one might think I am stuck on the Moses and Khidr story, and maybe that's so. In that story, though, I don't remember Khidr telling Moses he couldn't (at least privately) entertain questions -- just not ask for or demand answers that would interfere with Khidr's work. To me there is a subtle difference --as usual I can't articulate it! I am reminded of John Keats' term "Negative Capability", which he defines as "when man is capable of being in uncertainties. Mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact and reason." Perhaps this is what Moses needed a bit more of Perhaps this irritable reaching is what there is no room for If a person is without a teacher, then she must ask of herself what does God require of me? Just how can I submit to God's will? How can I recognize it? These are questions which she may not be able to answer in words....but perhaps attention and openness might happen because of having asked one's self. This seems necessary, at least right now.... Fondly and respectfully, Julie H. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 05:58:20 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14932; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 01:17:43 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA08210; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 00:58:22 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA08205; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 00:58:19 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01HZJWZZ35BK90ORHX@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Tue, 02 Jan 1996 23:58:20 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 02 Jan 1996 23:58:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <01HZJWZZ3Y9E90ORHX@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@facteur.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: When someone admonishes us for having questions, and then attempts to out-God God by assuming to know that questions displease God, I then know that I am in the midst of someone who does not believe in free will who believes that God prefers slaves to servants who will treat others as slaves to his own will (which he assumes to be the same as God's) who does not understand that Allah being who Allah is, Allah's Wisdom, therefore, requires a diversity of expressions who assumes that the Prophets Companions already asked all the questions to be posed who assumes that Sunnah and Hadith cannot engender in us more questions so that we may find more answers who confuses finders with aimless seekers who would not make a good sheykh. =Mackie Blanton= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 13:49:38 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18347; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 09:10:43 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA10512; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 08:51:28 -0500 Received: from relay7.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA10480; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 08:51:25 -0500 Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwxr03439; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 08:51:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id IAA26146; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 08:51:23 -0500 Date: 03 Jan 96 08:49:38 EST From: Sufi Order <75166.1770@compuserve.com> To: PE Subject: Re: Fwd: Sufi Order of the West (fwd) Message-Id: <960103134937_75166.1770_CHR151-4@CompuServe.COM> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: -- [ From: Sufi Order * EMC.Ver #2.03 ] -- > Forwarded message: > From: paneagle@peoples.net (Wm. Whitney) > Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com > Reply-to: tariqas@europe.std.com > To: tariqas@world.std.com (Tariqas) > Date: 95-12-30 12:16:20 EST > > -- [ From: Wm. Whitney * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- > > Would someone be so kind as to forward contact information for the Sufi > Order of the West?.... both smail and email if possible. Thanks. > > PE Dear PE, Our mailing address is Sufi Order North American Secretariat, PO Box 30065 Seattle WA 98103. Our E-mail address is 75166,177@Compuserve.com. Phone 1- 206-782-2001 In Europe: Sufi Order International C/O Zahir Roehrs 23 rue de la Tulierie 92150 Suresnes France Much Light, Ma'abud From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 16:47:03 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01760; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 09:17:43 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA11282; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 08:57:16 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA11276; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 08:57:14 -0500 From: omegapub@taconic.net Received: from host.taconic.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21248; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 08:50:51 -0500 Received: from ch_anx_p3.taconic.net by host.taconic.net; (5.65/1.1.8.2/13Jul95-1105AM) id AA18575; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 08:52:15 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Jan 96 08:47:03 PST Subject: asking questions To: tariqas@world.std.com X-Mailer: Chameleon V0.05, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Perhaps this brief quotation from Rilke's Letters to a Young Poet will be useful in the discussion about the value of questions: "...to have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and to try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written in a very foreign language. Don't search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is, to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer." (Translation by Stephen Mitchell) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Abi'l-Khayr E-mail: omegapub@taconic.net Date: 01/03/96 Time: 08:47:03 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 16:31:53 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05389; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 12:23:43 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA26047; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:38:50 -0500 Received: from relay1.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA26037; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:38:45 -0500 Received: from cornell.edu by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwyc09072; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:36:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from orie.cornell.edu (PIVOT.ORIE.CORNELL.EDU [128.84.138.201]) by cornell.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA09783 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:32:46 -0500 Received: by orie.cornell.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05261; Wed, 3 Jan 96 11:31:53 EST Date: Wed, 3 Jan 96 11:31:53 EST From: johara@orie.cornell.edu (Johara Shahabuddin) Message-Id: <9601031631.AA05261@orie.cornell.edu> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Hi Michael, Thanks for your mail. Sorry not interested in the personal. Its funny and strange of me to mention that bit in my mail, but it just sort of came as a justification for calling myself individualistic. By the way, I found your reply quite strange. I think you are being deliberately dense...but in case you really dont understand what I said, please say so, and I'll apologize for my interpretation. > > >> I dont have a teacher, but am being tortured by the `Submit' of the Book. > >What do you mean?, Which book? How can a Book torture you? This is just a phrase to say that the Quran bothers me and puts questions to me. Its a bit hi-fi to say it this way. Sorry about that. > >> The questions for all >> of us may be different, but ignoring them makes the person regress >> spiritually. > >Surely on the path we must ignore all questions and we must regress >spiritually. Blessed are the poor in spirit.......... >To entertain a question implies that you believe you have an >answer. We have nothing. Even this statement is wrong. > You are right...to entertain a question is to some level a belief that its answer exists. But I cant get rid of questions and to me it seems most humans are stuck with them. >I suggest you find a teacher and don't listen to my advice. > Do you have a teacher? Do you listen to your advice ie. do you have no questions? If you do, what do you do with them? Much regards, Johara. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 19:52:21 1996 Received: from relay3.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25185; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 15:03:30 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwyq23539; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 15:01:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA22077; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 15:00:43 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17133; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 14:52:21 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA20270; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 14:52:21 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 14:52:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199601031952.OAA20270@europe.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: >From habib@world.std.com Wed Jan 3 14:52:18 1996 Return-Path: Received: from relay4.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA20256; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 14:52:18 -0500 Received: from vale.adm.ku.dk by relay4.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzwyb20710; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 11:19:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from host.domain (garm.adm.ku.dk [130.225.127.34]) by vale.adm.ku.dk (8.7.3/8.7) with SMTP id RAA11234 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 17:17:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from [130.225.125.211] (mac17.anthro.ku.dk [130.225.125.211]) by garm.adm.ku.dk (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id RAA10351 for ; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 17:19:50 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199601031619.RAA10351@garm.adm.ku.dk> X-Sender: antroor@pop.adm.ku.dk Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 17:24:37 +0100 To: tariqas@europe.std.com From: ole.ramsing@anthro.ku.dk (Ole Ramsing) unsubscribe tariqas From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 21:41:15 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01868; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 17:11:55 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA07112; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:41:20 -0500 Received: from relay7.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA07101; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:41:18 -0500 From: ASHA101@aol.com Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzwyw07529; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:41:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA12823 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:41:15 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:41:15 -0500 Message-Id: <960103164102_105505898@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Questions, and my experience so far Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Johara, The response to questions by many teachers is not to deny the question. If fact, for many, to dissuade you from asking questions or even questioning the teacher would be quite unethical. What is asked is that not that one should suspend questions but that one might somehow suspend argument. In otherwords, if you do not agree with the teacher, then, rather than pressing your argument or even question, just forget what she or he said. (even forget the Quran if it bothers you - it is not the Quran that is worth learnig it is what is behind the Quran that is worth anything, just like a teachers words) That is why when some teachers will, if you begin asking questions about a certain subject, simpy cease speaking of the subject. The theory (as I understand it) is, that if you can just keep quiet for a while and let your own realizations occur that maybe what makes no sense now will, later on. But that if you have different realizations then maybe you will teach them and they will be quiet and not ask too many questions. Realizations come as the fruit in the fall, if you work hard but don't mess with the crop too much. Nurturance is more valuable than engineering in this case. Asking questions is like engineering (which isn't all bad) but living with them is like nurturance and also keeps you on your gaurd which is also much needed. And why stay with someone for years and years if you are silent all the time because nothing they say makes any sense? I guess because you are attracted to them or something about them. Maybe they wear a nice hat, or you like the community. It is simple and this simplicity is the most important thing. On the other hand the questions are the light of a fire. You don't let them go, you just remove them a little ways away, at least, temporarily. Perhaps later the question will go away but the fire remains. The fire of the question without the question (it is a lovely state) reveals itself to be yourself most purely and in such beauty. But that is not to say one shouldn't ask questions, just that it is worth watching the desire behind the question also. And, it is to say, that if the answer doesn't suit you, don't make a big deal out of it, in fact, forget it. Being quiet is not the same as blind faith. The only time a teacher ever asks you for blind faith is after they have proven their own faith in you so much that you have complete faith in yourself, which may only come after years of giving themselves in trust to you, and even then they probably won't really do it but it is just that you wouldn't mind by then because you know that it is you who must take care not to break the vulnerable vessel that is your teacher. That is my experience anyway. Asha From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 20:21:12 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01671; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 17:11:41 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA03685; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:26:40 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA03665; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:26:36 -0500 Received: from halon.sybase.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18377; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 15:34:03 -0500 Received: from sybase.sybase.com (nntp1.sybase.com) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA01960; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 12:34:03 -0800 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by sybase.sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.4) id AA06692; Wed, 3 Jan 96 12:33:58 PST Received: by serii.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id AA01745; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 12:21:12 -0800 Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 12:21:12 -0800 From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <9601032021.AA01745@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: fwd: msa: NEWS: Arabs consume uranium food and water (fwd) X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: To: msa@htm3.ee.queensu.ca Subject: msa: NEWS: Arabs consume uranium food and water Hdate: Saturday 8 SHa`baan 1416 A.H. Number: msa/30Dec95/20882 Bismillah Walhamdulillah Was Salaatu Was Salaam 'ala Rasulillah Saturday 30 December 1995, London-UK From: Parveez Syed Global Media Monitoring Shanti Communications One Stuart Road, Thornton Heath, Surrey CR7 8RA1 UK Tel: London-UK 44-0831-196693 Fax: 44-0181-665 0384 E-Mail INTERNET: PARVEEZ@CR78RA1UK.WIN-UK.NET Friendly Gulf assault uranium food and water! reviewed-edited by Parveez Syed, Shanti GMM Millions of people in the Middle East are set to consume uranium infested food and water. For those of us that had friends or loved ones who were in Iraq - as well as those of us who care about the people that still have to live in the area - the following may prove useful. After the treatment vets got over the Agent Orange claims, we doubt anybody would believe the military / VA ******* about denying responsibility for illnesses among Gulf assault vets anyway. In any event, you might want to save this for future reference for the alleged Gulf experts you may come in contact with in the West and elsewhere. INTERVIEW FROM: (c) NEW DAWN (34) Jan/Feb 1996. DEPLETED URANIUM: DEAD CHILDREN, SICK SOLDIERS The UN-authorised, U.S.-led war against Iraq officially ended in March 1991, or so it seemed. In previous issues of New Dawn we reported on the genocidal effects of the continuing UN embargo on the people of Iraq. We also drew attention to the plight of thousands of Iraqis and allied war veterans who are victims of radiation poisoning. The use of Depleted Uranium (DU) armour piercing shells by U.S. forces in the 1991 Gulf War was uncovered by the German professor, Dr. Siegwart-Horst Gunther. A survivor of world war and internment in a Nazi concentration camp, Dr. Gunther is a tireless campaigner in the struggle to highlight the little-reported and ongoing human suffering resulting from the Gulf War. Recently at an international conference David Muller, President of the South Movement, Australia interviewed Prof. Siegwart-Horst Gunther, President of Yellow Cross International, for New Dawn. DAVID MULLER: Professor, I gather that Depleted Uranium is a by-product of the nuclear enrichment industry. Is this correct? PROF. GUNTHER: Uranium ore, as found in nature, is a compound which consists for the most part, of the isotope 238 and about 0.70% of the isotope 235. Now, as the isotope 235 alone is fissionable and hence of use for the reactors, the uranium ore, poor in that element, must be enriched. Such a process involves masses of material and creates consequently huge quantities of depleted uranium (composed mostly of the sole isotope 238). DAVID MULLER: Why did the U.S. use Depleted Uranium shells in the Gulf War? PROF. GUNTHER: Depleted Uranium possesses characteristics which make it very attractive for the weapon technology : * It is the heaviest element occurring, so to say, naturally on earth: 1 cm3 weighs 18.95 grams; * Possibly related to a German technology, because of its density, uranium tipped projectiles have a very high penetrating power. DU is best suited for the production of ammunition to break through steel armours; * Moreover it is a naturally pyphoric material. After penetration, so much heat develops at the exit point, that DU particles catch fire. A hit tank, for instance, explodes releasing highly toxic and radioactive products; * After experiences during the Gulf War, since 1992, U.S. tanks are getting increased strengthening, all around, by DU. These U.S. tanks are ironically called Radiation Deponents. DAVID MULLER: Professor you were one of the first people to expose to the world that the U.S. had used Depleted Uranium in the Gulf War. How did you make this discovery? PROF. GUNTHER: I found on the 7th of May, 1991 on the highway between Baghdad and Amman, in the desert, projectiles in the form and size of a cigar, which retained my attention, because of their unusual appearance and weight. In that region, columns of refugees, aid transports and others had been submitted to attack by A-10 planes equipped with this type of ammunition. DAVID MULLER: That's a long way from the tank battles on the Kuwait border. So you found an unexploded shell fired from a U.S. Warthog ground attack plane that attacked traffic on the way to Jordan? PROF. GUNTHER: Yes. Later on I happened to see children playing with these projectiles. A little girl who possessed 12 of them died of leukaemia. Also in the children hospitals of Baghdad, Mosul and Basrah the number of leukaemia, aplastic anaemia and tumour development is noticeably on the increase. Moreover a new up-to-date undiagnosed disease is seen with abnormal abdominal distension possibly related to disturbed liver and kidney functions. Because of the impossibility of treatment the children die, most painfully from secondary infections. DAVID MULLER: I believe that you took one of the DU shells back to Germany for analysis ? PROF. GUNTHER: The possible relation to German technology prompted me to take one bullet to be analysed by four German institutions. The bullet under examination exhibited a radioactivity of 11 to 12 microsivert per hour and was highly toxic. Because of its danger the projectile was seized by German police in special protective clothing and transported to a safe place. In radiology in Germany, personnel should not be exposed to more than 50 millisivert per year. DAVID MULLER: What are the short term and long term effects of DU contamination in Iraq? PROF. GUNTHER: From my own observations in Iraq, the long term effect of contact with DU results in the breakdown of the immune system. Other effects noticed have been: * Many infectious diseases, with serious complications are on the increase. Sometimes diseases break out which are known in Europe only through text books; * Herpes infections, Zoster infections and AIDS-like symptoms are dramatically on the increase, all of them possibly related to the breakdown of the immune system; * Premature births are numerous. Congenital malformations of the newborn show a high postwar percentage (26.8% according to Dept. of Pathology, College of Medicine, University of Baghdad). In the countryside, children die in great numbers and are buried without possibility of diagnosis; * During the lambing season in 1993 a high percentage (10% according to IPA Agricultural Research Center) of abnormal newborn lambs have been observed. Most of them died a few days after birth. DAVID MULLER: U.S. authorities closed a DU penetrator ammunition factory on the edge of Albany, in upstate New York because of air borne contamination levels exceeded 150 microcurie per month contaminating populated areas up to 26 miles away. This was the equivalent of 1 or 2 of these 30mm canon shells per month releasing its toxicity to the environment. We can only guess at the toxicity levels in Iraq when the Desert Storm 100 hour ground offensive exploded some 40 tonnes of these DU shells. PROF. GUNTHER: According to American Greenpeace, documents released under the Freedom of Information Act, indicate that the Allied Forces would have left 300 tons of DU on the battle fields between Kuwait and Iraq, mostly in the form of toxic and radioactive dust. Much of the uranium dust has been scattered about thousands of square miles of desert. As the Gulf region has a rainy season, it is feared that uranium particles get at one time or the other into the ground water and finally reach the food chain. Highly toxic uranium dust, if inhaled, can result in lung cancer. Many DU projectiles spread over the battle fields have been collected by children and used as toys with possibly devastating consequences. The toxic nature of DU contamination is highlighted with the U.S. Department of Defence erecting a highly secret $4 million facility in Barnwall, South Carolina just to detoxify 22 military vehicles hit by friendly fire. Some of the vehicles are so badly contaminated that they have had to bury them. DAVID MULLER: The Walter Reed Army Medical Centre in the United States tested Gulf War veterans suffering from Desert Storm Syndrome for radiation toxicity following Gulf War veteran outrage and Congressional pressure. PROF. GUNTHER: My observations of the effects of DU contamination in Iraq show a similarity described in the so-called Gulf-War-Syndrome of U.S. and British soldiers in Kuwait. Right now one hears about odd ailments among Gulf War veterans from the U.S., which could possibly be attributed to contact with DU. One hears about hair loss, skin disease, damage to different organs etc. Even pregnant women are giving birth to crippled children. Many of these effects had remained unknown to the public. Newspapers recorded that a U.S. staff-sergeant held the view that many soldiers now felt uncertain and fear that they may have been used as Guinea-Pigs in a radiation experiment. Laura Flanders recently reported in the Nation magazine on a U.S. Veterans Administration state-wide survey of 251 Gulf War veterans families in Mississippi. Of their children conceived and born since the war, 67% have illnesses related to severe or missing eyes, missing ears, blood infections, respiratory problems and fused fingers. DAVID MULLER: Which companies are still manufacturing DU weaponry? PROF. GUNTHER: Different types of DU ammunition have been manufactured in the U.S. by Honeywell, Aerojet and others, the mass-production began in 1977. DU penetrators were extensively used for the first time during late in the Gulf War in 1991, with impressive results. At present there exists also mass-production in Britain and France and the export to other NATO countries, as well as to Japan, Australia and New Zealand are not excluded. DAVID MULLER: Professor, Australia exports Uranium Yellow cake to Europe ostensibly for peaceful purposes. From what I understand from your speech you see collusion between commercial enrichment plants and the military? PROF. GUNTHER: Yes, it is a question of cutting costs. Generally speaking, because of their toxicity and radioactivity, wastes from the uranium industry are in Europe deposited in salt galleries. These wastes must be safely deposited for a very long period of time. Such deposition processes seem to be extremely expensive. So, to save money, the uranium industry are giving depleted uranium, free of charge, to institutions or others, who are interested in it. DAVID MULLER: One final question! I noticed that you are circulating a petition about Depleted Uranium. What is the purpose of your organisation Yellow Cross? PROF. GUNTHER: Yellow Cross International makes a vehement appeal for the total ban of using DU ammunition as well as the newly developed laser weapons provoking irreparable damage to the eyes. Since 1991 I have been constantly warning about the DU dangers for the populations. Unfortunately at that time only few people believed me. Also in Iraq! * Readers wishing to know more about Prof. Gunther's humanitarian work may write to: Yellow Cross International, Schlo Lichtenau, Austria. EDITORIAL NOTES: RISE IN CONGENITAL DEFECTS REPORTED AMONG CHILDREN IN IRAQ IRAQ, BAGHDAD - A recent survey by the Ministry of Health has registered a noticeable rise in congenital defects and a sharp rise in mortality rates among children and aged people because of the sharp shortages of food, medicines, and medical supplies. A source at the Ministry of Health said the rate of newborn babies whose weight below 2.5 kilograms has also sharply increased by 4.5 per cent in 1990 to 22 per cent in 1994. The source blamed the reason on severe malnutrition and the ill health status of pregnant women. According to the ministry's research conducted by a team of experts, scientists and researchers to define the impact of the war led by the U.S. on the health of Iraqi citizens, there is an increase in the incidences of cancers such as acute leukaemia (myloid, lymphatic, undifferentiated etc) and in the incidence of relapse cases compared to those of 1990 and before. There is a drastic increase in the cancer cases of children and youth. Some 10-15 cases are being reported daily after the war compared to only 2-3 cases prior to that. Anemia cases had increased due to many factors including malnutrition resulting from the difficult health situation caused by the effect of war and UN sanctions. An increase in the incidence rate of congenital malformation cases such as phacomelia, achodroplasia and mongolism were reported. Similar increases were reported for the cases of the other types of congenital malformation, bone dysplasia, central nervous system disorders and anencephally. All are attributed to the Gulf War. ends Presented by: Shanti GMM. 30 Dec 1995. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Parveez Syed's direct contact details are: One Stuart Road, Thornton Heath, Surrey CR7 8RA1 UK Tel: London-UK 44-0831-196693; Fax/tel: 44-0181-665 0384 E-Mail INTERNET: parveez@cr78ra1uk.win-uk.net CIS to CIS UserID: 100555,61@compuserve.com ----------------------------------------------------------------- Food for thought?: "In politics, as in the snake oil business, it pays to have a short memory and a chameleon-like quality. That is why the relationship between a journalist and a politician should be like the one between a dog and a lamp-post". But who is doing what to whom? One wonders ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------- ___________________________ parveez@cr78ra1uk.win-uk.net ----- End Included Message ----- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 3 16:53:32 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10182; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 17:24:16 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA09998; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:59:43 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA09980; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:59:39 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19725; Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:54:33 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 16:54:32 +0001 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: postings and individual/communal To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: <960101170634_103758308@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 1 Jan 1996 ASHA101@aol.com wrote: > Such arguments as clarity and heart, sucinctness and love, simply represent > these two poles and again both need to be present and in ballance inorder for > the underlying ideal to be truely alive. This is what sufis have allways > done, (to, more or less, quote a friend) when the sufis follow both the path > of faith (iman) and infidelity (kufr), prayer and spilling wine on the prayer > carpet, the God-ideal and shattering it, morality, piety and laughing at the > sanctimonious mullas with Nasruddin Hojja, experiencing the holy presence of > ancient masters and "a loaf of bread a book of verse and thou" Not all sufis do all of these things, and they certainly don't do them all at the same time. The key is to know under what circumstances which behaviors are appropriate and useful. Imagine seeing someone forcing nauseating fluid down another's throat. Does one necessarily duplicate this action in all circumstances? Or does one know to only do this when the other person has been poisoned, and needs to vomit? The person who knows that is a sufi teacher. Yours, habib From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 4 09:12:23 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09158; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 04:34:19 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id EAA26742; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 04:15:30 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id EAA26737; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 04:15:27 -0500 Received: from vx23.cc.monash.edu.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04975; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 04:12:32 -0500 Received: from vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au by vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au (PMDF V5.0-4 #8933) id <01HZMIBN02CW9EJ3K8@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> for tariqas@world.std.com; Thu, 04 Jan 1996 20:12:23 +1100 Date: Thu, 04 Jan 1996 20:12:23 +1100 From: D A Rice Subject: Love is a Boundless Ocean (Rumi poem) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HZMIBN0N369EJ3K8@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@world.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Love is a boundless ocean in which the heavens are but a flake of foam. All the turning heavens are turned by waves of Love were it not for Love, the world would be frozen. How else would a mineral turn into a plant? How would plants sacrifice themselves to become filled with spirit? How would spirit sacrifice itself for the sake of that Breath by which Mary was made pregnant? All of them would be solid and immovable as ice, not flying and seeking like locusts. Every particle is in love with that Perfection and mounts upward like a sapling. Their silent aspiration is, in effect, a song for the Glory of God. (From Jalaluddin Rumi's Mathnawi, Book 5, v. 3853 ff, based on the translation by R. A. Nicholson.) From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 4 17:30:42 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07757; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:14:56 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA12084; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 12:19:52 -0500 Received: from access5.digex.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA12071; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 12:19:49 -0500 Received: (from tbear@localhost) by access5.digex.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA17283 ; for ; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 12:30:43 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 12:30:42 -0500 (EST) From: Abdkabir To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: posting of writings In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: It is not only a problem of bandwidth, but some of us have PPP accounts wherein all of our mail is automaticallly downloaded onto a local drive - there is no choice about this procedure, as far as I know. (Shell accounts don't have this proooblem because they allow users to view their mail as it appears on the service provider's drive.) Long, frequent posts that are nothing more than book chapters take up drive space, even if temporarily (yes, the delete key can be used), but more of a problem is the time it takes to download such posts adds to the online bill (not all of us have free company and university accounts), and ties up the computer until the download is done. Frequent, lengthy data dumps, can significantly add to the online bill and amount of time it takes to tie up one's machine. As I said, a much more courteous and fair solution is to issue brief announcements of new materials that can be individually downloaded from a web or gopher site. On Tue, 2 Jan 1996, Bob Olhsson wrote: > I, for one, would rather see more stories posted from various orders as > fuel for discussion as long as it is clearly titled as such. I do far > better being presented with a passage than I do going looking for one. The > bandwidth and attention involved is trivial compared to the kind of delete > key effort that "feel-good" and "me-too" conversational trivia requires. It > is true that there has been little discussion lately but that is the simple > result of what the rest of us have failed to do! > > >On Thu, 28 Dec 1995, Abdkabir wrote: > > > >> I heartily second the motion expressed below by Asha. If people cannot > >> afford the books, then Faoud should once a month say, limit his messages > >> regarding book chapters to merely announcing that such materials are > >> available at their web site. This usual Naqsbandi-Nazim aggressiveness in > >> advertising their "sheik" by dumping bandwidth-eating book chapters onto > >> this group with such tedious regularity ought not to be tolerated by the > >> sponser of this list, unless he has changed his mission statement, which > >> we should be informed about if he has. It seems the more we have been > >> silent about Faoud's data dumping practices, the more he appears > >> emboldened to increase the size and frequency of the dumps...and > >> undoubtedly giving the impression, especially to new subscribers of this > >> group, that its primary purpose is to serve as a free advertisng medium > >> for the writings of Sheik Nazim and extending, with locust-like > >> persistance, the reach of his followers. > >> > > Bob Olhsson Audio | O tongue, thou art a > olh@hyperback.com | treasure without end. > P.O. Box 555 | And, O tongue, thou art also a > Novato, CA 94948-0555 | disease without remedy. > 415.457.2620 | > 415.456.1496 FAX | == Jelal'uddin Rumi == > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 4 18:36:17 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19277; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:09:56 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA15884; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:36:24 -0500 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA15876; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:36:18 -0500 From: ASHA101@aol.com Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA15177 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:36:17 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:36:17 -0500 Message-Id: <960104133614_83740960@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: paradox Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Habib, you wrote in regard to my post on the various arguments for and against individuality and communality (in which I observed that individuality and communality are symboloic of two standpoints that are the poles of one intention and both must exist simotaneously) that you felt the key to understanding the rightness of a particular behavior depended upon knowing the right thing to do in a circumstance. I do not disagree with you. you said <<>> I might say, the person who knows what the action is about is a sufi, the one who knows the cure is a doctor. Becoming a sufi is what we are aiming at becoming. So, instead of looking at what is evidenced on the surface, we try to look beneath the surface. One way to peer behind the veil is to see the paradox and then to wonder, what is this paradox about? One such paradox would be, the individual and communal standpoints. And of course, what I mean to talk about is behavior that is antipodean rather than meerly conflicting. Observing the viewpoint is no doubt the key to the story of Khidr and Moses, where Kidr is doing actions that would ordinarily be thought of as reprehensible. Had Moses looked at what Kider was intending rather than at what he was doing Moses would have changed his assessment. So one would have to look from the viewpoint of Khidr. There one would see the paradox: for instance, what is the paradox in sinking a ship full of people, if the intention is to be compassionate then the paradox is hurting people and not hurting people. In this case there is a ballance, hurt some in order to not hurt others. If Moses only knew that Khidr would not act without being aware of both hurting and not hurting and that these must be representative of the two poles of compassion, then he would have seen Khidr's actions in a much different light; i.e. as acts of compassion. And then he might have learned something. So Sufis may pray devoutly one day and spill wine upon the prayer carpet the next day. It is a paradox to say they represent the same thing. Some would argue the value of prayer and others the value of spilling wine. I'm suggesting that both are true and both are in me. I'm also saying that individuality and communality are indeed a paradox and that in some cases the paradox may represent the intention (value) of freedom and in other cases honor. Further I am hypothesising that these values may not be equally alive in both eastern and western cultures. Somehow my mind made some connections between the dual focus threads and the individual/communal threads that have woven a rather lively pattern around here of late. Asha From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 4 18:36:08 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21570; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:12:21 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA15865; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:36:11 -0500 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA15860; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:36:09 -0500 From: ASHA101@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id NAA23630 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:36:08 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 13:36:08 -0500 Message-Id: <960104133608_83740920@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: submission Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I submit that there are two senses to the word submit besides the one which submissive conjurs. First there is to submit as in submitting to the king in order to gain power. As one rises in power one submits more fully. The most fully submitted is the king who has total freedom. Then there is submission in love. This submission trades freedom for intimacy. But total freedom is gained when one has lost one's self completely in the other as Majun has in Leila. Or to choose a more common example: as the parents do when they complain loveingly of having no social life since thier baby has come. The shadow of these submission is in the first case secretly not a submission at all, just a grab for power and in the second case is not a submission of love but of fear (as in fear of abandonment - which is no doubt why you see some sufi poetry actually revel in abandonment, it is not a dependance but a total lack of fear of the worst and the poison becomes wine). The appelations "thinking" and "democratic" for instance suggest to me independance and indifference which are the two wings which make the sufi fly. Without these, submission means nothing; it is not love, it is not light. Asha From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 4 22:00:21 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16253; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:42:47 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA29188; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:13:30 -0500 Received: from halon.sybase.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA29160; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:13:26 -0500 Received: from sybase.sybase.com (nntp1.sybase.com) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA05842; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:13:28 -0800 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by sybase.sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.4) id AA09810; Thu, 4 Jan 96 14:13:23 PST Received: by serii.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id AA02576; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:00:21 -0800 Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 14:00:21 -0800 From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <9601042200.AA02576@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: submission Cc: mateens@sybase.com X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Salaams, >... > The appelations "thinking" and "democratic" for instance suggest to me >independance and indifference which are the two wings which make the sufi >fly. Without these, submission means nothing; it is not love, it is not >light. > Asha > "Independent" of other-than-God, yes, indifferent to what befalls them, yes. "Thinking", insofar as it leads one to contemplation of God, yeah. But thinking where it takes one far from God is of no benefit: as for example, constantly chasing down fine points of jurisprudence or logic. "Democratic"? - It doesn't fit my concept of God--He never took a vote from me on anything (for which I am grateful). The concept of leadership and Shura is more applicable among Sufis, wherein consultation is made by the Master, but votes are not taken. --mateen siddiqui From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 5 01:50:19 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23535; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 21:32:34 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA04399; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 21:03:09 -0500 Received: from halon.sybase.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA04383; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 21:03:06 -0500 Received: from sybase.sybase.com (nntp1.sybase.com) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA05414; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 18:03:09 -0800 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by sybase.sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.4) id AA24626; Thu, 4 Jan 96 18:03:04 PST Received: by serii.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id AA02762; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:50:19 -0800 Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 17:50:19 -0800 From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <9601050150.AA02762@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Abu Yazid al-Bistami and the disciple + comment Cc: mateens@sybase.com X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Just one comment: Actually I consider the "Ultimate Shaykh" to be Muhammad, peace be upon him, as Allah is not a shaykh, as a shaykh is an intermediary to Allah. Allah is the goal, whereas the shaykh is the means to reach the goal. This is a deep topic, but to me the meaning is this: Allah sent a human being to us human beings, because we cannot directly experience God, we need an intermediary. For this reason, the door to God is not to say only "laa ilaha ill-Allah", but is to follow it directly by "Muhammadan Rasul-Allah". Either phrase by itself is imperfect. That is why the Prophet was ordered by Allah to say, "if you wish to love God, follow me, then Allah will love you." So the goal is One, the One, and the path is through the Prophet (saws), of whom the shaykh is the representative and imitator, par excellence. peace! --mateen siddiqui From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 5 02:30:01 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA10139; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 22:04:55 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA08093; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 21:30:07 -0500 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA08085; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 21:30:01 -0500 From: ASHA101@aol.com Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id VAA13250 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Thu, 4 Jan 1996 21:30:01 -0500 Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 21:30:01 -0500 Message-Id: <960104213000_84009273@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: submission Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Dear Mateen, >>>"Independent" of other-than-God, yes, indifferent to what befalls them, yes.<<<< You are quite right about one way of using the words "think" and "democratic". For some they denote standing apart from god. There is also somethng quite beautiful about these words when they denote the sense of taking responsibility for oneself and not passing it off to another. There are two ways of thinking of these words. My sense was that in the context that Johara brought them up, I could feel the courage that it takes to become a true mureed. Perhaps you are pointing out the fear of letting go of one's own sense of self. Certainly, to let go one's sense of self requires a strong sense of self to begin with and should not be suggested to all. However, there was a very interesting 16th century mystic in France who taught the faithful the practice of letting go. The ultimate practice consisted in even letting go of ones' idea of god! Asha From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 5 06:22:37 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21353; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 01:47:35 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA08858; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 01:22:26 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA08832; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 01:22:22 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01HZMQSAMMR290PTME@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Fri, 05 Jan 1996 00:22:37 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 05 Jan 1996 00:22:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: submission To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <01HZMQSAMMQO90PTME@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@facteur.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I know of no monotheistic believer who refers to Heaven in any way other than to mean The Kingdom of Heaven. No one would suggest that we should say "The Democracy of Heaven." And I certainly agree with Mateen Siddiqui's implication that "chasing down fine points of jurisprudence or logic" can in itself be an idolatry. May we always have the obdience and humility never to put ourselves above our Master; and our Master also, so that he may never put himself above our God. =Mackie Blanton= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 5 16:11:56 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13986; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:42:42 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA05224; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:12:04 -0500 Received: from relay5.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA05214; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:12:02 -0500 From: Hafizullah@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxfk20397; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:11:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA04981 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:11:56 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:11:56 -0500 Message-Id: <960105111155_84264658@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: paradox Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: It has been said that a paradox can be paradoctored. Near as I can tell, something we call "paradox" is an artifact of language and perspective -- i.e., the mind world -- not truth. In this case, "individuality" is something that happens at one level, and "community" at another. Level confusions in general (and this one in particular, since we're talking about it) lead to all sorts of mindbinds and conflicted emotions. Individuality and community are not mutually exclusive but complimentary, and it may even be that neither is realized in their fullness or completion without the other. Lovingly stirring the pot, Hafizullah From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 5 19:21:00 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12382; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:02:47 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA18534; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 14:21:51 -0500 Received: from island.amtsgi.bc.ca by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA18523; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 14:21:48 -0500 Received: from Hernando.islandnet.com by island.amtsgi.bc.ca with smtp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m0tYHhv-0005VyC; Fri, 5 Jan 96 11:21 PST Message-Id: Date: Fri, 5 Jan 96 11:21 PST X-Sender: dynamics@islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: dynamics@islandnet.com (Jabreil Hanafi) Subject: Re: Abu Yazid al-Bistami and the disciple + comment Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: A All of you have always been kind to me so I willbe forth right in my question. As I have come to understand through my up bringing there is no intermediary between me and Allah. Allah does not need to come to man through another human. If that which calls itself Allah did than what would the diffrence be between Islam and Christianity and thus the concept of trinity. I am not advocating anu of this as a belief system by the way, I am simply attempting to reconcile the exoteric from the esoteric. If my father were alive would he not being a fundamentilist state to me that all Islam offers is the most direct path and that that path is through yourself and Allah. Now as to the question of the Companions and those who the Prophet (sws) will upon the day of the Aeon of Judgement stand for this is a diffrent matter. And as to the matter of Baraka of intercession either through a chain and or through the past history of Caliph I believe that this also is a diffrent matter. As to a succession of Prophets beginning with Adam and Ending as the Seal of the Prophets with Mohammed this clearly lodges a completely diffrent thought into the matter. Last but not least the notion that it requires two angels to conduit a prayer to the ears of Allah becomes extremely interesting. Than if all of this is the case does Islam's proclamation of being the most direct path hold any water? And what of the issue called Allah is closer than your jougalar. Please be kind enough to respond to thse questions. They are difficult to ask because I know I am suppose to already know these fundamental answers, but I don't. Your dearest brother with but a limited capacity. Jabriel. 45 days now without cigarrettes! ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Dynamics Unlimited Suite 806 327 Maitland Victoria B.C. V9A 7G7 Voice (604) 384 6629 Fax (604) 380 9909 From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 5 19:37:42 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25162; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:21:04 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA23171; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 14:50:31 -0500 Received: from halon.sybase.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id OAA23150; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 14:50:27 -0500 Received: from sybase.sybase.com (nntp1.sybase.com) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA02219; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:50:29 -0800 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by sybase.sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.4) id AA08703; Fri, 5 Jan 96 11:50:24 PST Received: by serii.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id AA00643; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:37:42 -0800 Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 11:37:42 -0800 From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <9601051937.AA00643@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: submission X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > ... Certainly, to let go one's sense of self requires > a strong sense of self to begin with and should not be suggested to all. My master says, "the greater the ego, the greater the resulting saint when he or she 'rides'" his or her ego. For the Prophet, peace be upon him, said, 'your ego is your mount.'" > However, there was a very interesting 16th century mystic in France who >taught the faithful the practice of letting go. The ultimate practice >consisted in even letting go of ones' idea of god! > Asha vive cette mystique! After all, "who knows himself, knows God" with all its attendant meanings. peace! --mateen From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 5 22:21:49 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28798; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:59:04 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA18394; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:29:02 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA18382; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:28:59 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03034; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:21:50 -0500 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA19288 for tariqas@world.std.com; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:21:49 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:21:49 -0500 Message-Id: <960105172148_32865188@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Yusuf Ali translation Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: hello all, is there anyone who can clarify this? ---- I have come across a copy of the Abdullah Yusuf Ali's 1938 2-vol. The Meaning of The Glorious Qur'an. There are many beautiful verses that are numbered with a preceding "C" [as in "C.288" (with a ref. to the sura/ay. below that number, in parentheses)] -- are these verses that Ali wrote himself? or are they from traditional sources that he carried into English? If traditional, where/who are they from? These verses do not appear in the modified Ali translation printed in Saudi Arabia in the past 10 years, I think (1410 A.H. = ?). thank you. in peace, Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Jan 6 00:00:15 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24848; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 19:36:27 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA11923; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 19:13:17 -0500 Received: from halon.sybase.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA11914; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 19:13:14 -0500 Received: from sybase.sybase.com (nntp1.sybase.com) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA02056; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 16:13:16 -0800 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by sybase.sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.4) id AA13628; Fri, 5 Jan 96 16:13:10 PST Received: by serii.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id AA01044; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 16:00:15 -0800 Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 16:00:15 -0800 From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <9601060000.AA01044@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Yusuf Ali translation X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Jinavamsa, hello, The verses you refer to were Abdullah Yusuf Ali's I believe. These passages were "expurgated" for being to Sufic! The original translation has been retained for the most part, but some changes were made. However the commentary was extensively censored, modified and added too. (Things like the verse "in them are men who love to purify themselves" are commented 'this means cleaning themselves after using the bathroom.' and suchlike!). Remember, Saudi Arabia is a Wahabi nation, which is dedicated to eliminating the perceived "shirk" (polytheism), "kufr" (disbelief), and "bid'a" (innovation) of the Sufis. And in this they are of course killing the essence of Islam. peace! --mateen siddiqui ____________________________________________________________________ Naqshbandi-Haqqani Sufi Foundation URL: http://www.best.com/~informe/haqqani/haqqani.html mirror http://www.zakat.org.uk/haqqani/haqqani.html [in 9 languages] From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Jan 6 01:05:25 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18364; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:35:07 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA18839; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:12:14 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA18815; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:12:11 -0500 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08307; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:06:42 -0500 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id RAA18121 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:05:28 -0800 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id RAA27280 for tariqas@world.std.com; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:05:26 -0800 Message-Id: <199601060105.RAA27280@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth To: tariqas@world.std.com (Tariqas Elist) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:05:25 -0800 (PST) From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 4094 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 49960105 Assalam alaykum, my kin. I have returned after an absence from this elist in response to request from my brother Habibullah as he thought I might find this particular subject valuable to discuss (he was correct :>): He wrote: |...individual vs. communal/group approaches to spiritual growth. I'm unsure that there is really a clear differentiation between the two, since even within the community/communal group we have our own process of individual growth with which to contend. However, the context within which we discover Allah may make a difference to us and may prove more or less helpful to our overall growth depending on what form of spiritual practice we take up. |...this issue may be at the root of some fundamental differences |in approach by people involved in Sufi and other spiritual path(s). The issue might also be a *symptom* of other fundamental differences. One example is the attitude by Sufis toward monasticism, specifically toward withdrawing from the world as part of a spiritual path. Most Sufis whom I've met online and off agree that this is not part of the Way of Allah, as the Sufi, it is said, may retire temporarily from society but will always return to bring forward the fruits of hir retirement to the greater community. This notion of 'returning the wisdom to the community' appears to be very important to many mystical traditions, including that of Sufism. It describes a dynamic between the student and hir culture, and yet it does not say in what form this returning should take: whether it be through a designated spiritual community of which she is part, or through other means more tangental (Internet? :>). |My hypothesis is that some of us, partly from being "Westerners," partly |from our own psychological states, tend to approach spirituality from the |point of individual experience -- and to be threatened by truly becoming |part of a collective entity (afraid of losing our identity or control, |perhaps). Yes, differences of culture may very well be the underlying fraction- point, manifesting over the issue of group v. individual spirituality. However, my brief exposure to Sufi sheikhs and texts indicate to me that there are said to be 'lone' or 'wandering sufis' who from time to time drop in to the wider Sufi community (perhaps somewhat like the Green Man or various saints are said to instruct intermittently when the Will of Allah moves them). |Others of us, partly from being from more traditional |cultures, partly from our own psychological states, tend to approach |spirituality from the collective/communcal point of view -- to see our |growth as intricately related to the growth of others in our group, and |perhaps to the leadership of a "master" -- and to be threatened by truly |pursuing our individual experience (afraid of losing our identity as part |of the group, or the control that comes from the group, perhaps). Not only this but the way of the individual may be fraught (especially in the US or other developed nations) with peril, the hazards of modern society (strange cults, idolatry, etc.) being a sort of trap which could prove very dangerous to those without *some* guide (sheikh). I have been told that Allah or various other entities may guide the individual sufi, and yet we must understand that this is a special and unusual class of individual, moved by the Will of Allah to ways we can perhaps never hope to understand or connect. There is also the tradition that says that ALL Sufis (no exceptions) must in some way connect to the 'Golden Chain' of teachers, the line from Abraham and Adam down through the ages to today's world, which usually requires we become initiated to the guidance of a living sheikh to fulfill this requirement. There are traditional and metaphysical influences that may determine the safer path, and this is usually by connecting with a tradition (but not always, some say). I will have more to write in response to one or two other posts. Wonderful topic! Alaykum assalam, my kin. Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Jan 6 01:45:33 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09307; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 21:19:08 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA22564; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:52:01 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA22555; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:51:59 -0500 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22737; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:46:50 -0500 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id RAA21111 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:45:36 -0800 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id RAA00695 for tariqas@world.std.com; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:45:34 -0800 Message-Id: <199601060145.RAA00695@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth To: tariqas@world.std.com (Tariqas Elist) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:45:33 -0800 (PST) From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 3439 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 49960105 Assalam alaykum, my kin. Johara Shahabuddin : | I read a book by Scott Peck about his experiments with community and |liked it, called A Different Drum. (Although I didnt like the `quick |community' that he seemed to be offering his clients who got together |for these experiments.) Thank you for the reference. What is this 'quick community' of which you speak and he writes? How does he recommend that such a group be started and why, as opposed to a longer-lasting one? |...at first when people get together, there is a false community feeling |...everyone is nice to one another and so on. And then slowly a boredom |builds up that leads to a low energy, depressive state for the community |...because differences that arise are being trivially discarded... I live in a small community (4 adults) sharing a home in a residential neighborhood. I've lived here about 5 years now and have seen the combination of people here change many times. I have witnessed the *exact* problem you are describing many times, and have come to associate it with two major difficulties: 1) Commonality of Value/Purpose/Goal There is a great value in having shared purposes, goals and dreams beyond a desire to live in the same place harmoniously. Without this type of sharing (even if developed over a time) the community will eventually fragment based on differences of value and lifestyle as each grows in hir own way. 2) Communication Without constant or recurrent communication amongs the WHOLE group (or some centrally motivating force in this regard), any group which attempts to share communal space will begin to decay and fragment within. In order for this communication to take place the time must be made for it, the vehicle for it must be allowed, and the motivation must see it through. Communication can be a very difficult thing to iron out, especially among people from very different backgrounds and within communities without clear authority structures. (NOTE how easy it would be for a sheikh to facilitate or obstruct these!) |and slowly this builds up into a stage of conflict where if the conflict |is worked through and resolved, there arrives a sense of true community. I agree, and yet would say that the method of this 'working through and resolution' can at times be extremely time-consuming and complicated. Many people don't have the desire to engage such difficult processes (thus the value of shared goals) or confront themselves and their limitations. At least in a 'spiritual community' there can be focus applied to very specific individual processes which enhance individual perception, ability to listen, and the possibility of shared value. Within a community that does *not* share the regard for 'spirituality' (and some common ideas about what this means), it can be much more difficult to resolve such conflict, and instead the community disintegrates. |He perceives this process to be more accepting of individuals in the |`true community' stage, and leads to growth of the individuals in it... |whereas if a group is stuck in the initial `false' stage, then |individuality tends to be lost. Agreed, what you seem to be describing is a breakthrough of sincerety, openness and the shared experience which makes living in community so difficult and rewarding. Alaykum assalam, my kin. Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Jan 6 01:29:05 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12838; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 21:29:43 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA21163; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:37:24 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA21150; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:37:22 -0500 Received: from nova.unix.portal.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16839; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 20:30:21 -0500 Received: from jobe.shell.portal.com (jobe.shell.portal.com [156.151.3.4]) by nova.unix.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) with ESMTP id RAA20090 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:29:07 -0800 Received: (tyagi@localhost) by jobe.shell.portal.com (8.6.11/8.6.5) id RAA28960 for tariqas@world.std.com; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:29:05 -0800 Message-Id: <199601060129.RAA28960@jobe.shell.portal.com> Subject: Re: Individual vs. Communal Approaches to Spiritual Growth To: tariqas@world.std.com (Tariqas Elist) Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 17:29:05 -0800 (PST) From: tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com (Haramullah) Orientation: House of Kaos, St. Joseph, Kali Fornika, US -- Kali Yuga X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 4317 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: 49960105 Assalam alaykum my kin. Abdual Alim: |>...the sheepishly way people following without question The sheikh is not to be questioned but followed without even a thought! This is the role of the true murshid (I hope I have that word right). |>or looking for truth. Here of course many questions can assist, but ultimately only Allah can provide us with the truth, and this not often verbalizable. |>For the most part people her in american take the leaders information |>at face value If one has been taken into the fold of a sheikh, is this not expected? I know it is tempting to look outside the shadow of the sheikh's robes, but is it really of value to do this? Might we become more confused than assisted by the variety of voices and expecially those who do not know us as well as our teacher/guide? |>and if past examples of this do not have ending that I like. I'd like to hear more about what things you did not like. |>I without question want to ask question talk about everything going |>on in my life to include my dreams. I'm sure that some sheikhs differ in what kinds of questions they will allow and when. The sensitive sheikh will likely speak with hir students about items of requirement *after* they are fulfilled. Some may refuse to say anything! And what are we to do? Is this any different than the mysteries of Allah?! She is teaching us a valuable lesson, surely. Habibullah: |...Americans (and Westerners to some degree) think of themselves as |individualists, and are in some ways. However, they also tend to be |very susceptible to cults where they loose all their individuality |and critical thinking skills. Perhaps they are really seeking balance? Well, are you sure these are the same people doing this? Perhaps Americans are just like very many other large groups of people and comprise a spectrum of individuality/cultishness. I notice that the greatest byproduct of Americans' 'individuality' is a failure to connect to each other, to find a sacred community, to achieve lasting and continued relationships, etc. In this way those who come from American culture may find such things attractive within the mystical communities of other, older cultures. |Is there a way of benefitting from positive aspects of a relationship |to a teacher and to membership in a tariqa without loosing the ability |to make independent judgements when necessary? I would warn strongly against this. The sheikh-murshid relationship is a very special one, and (comparable to guru-chela in Hinduism) requires the absolute trust of the student. Surely there are times for questioning and discussion of teachings and practices, but to have the student evaluating the assignments of the guide before undertaking them would seem to place the ego of the student as an obstacle to hir development. |Can submitting to a teacher facilitate individual growth? |Under what conditions? I think this is a very important question. Individual growth is indeed possible within such a relationship, but it must be founded on mutual trust and a sincere dedication. |Is individual growth the goal? Not always. Sometimes the dedicant will be challenged to 'cut hirself back', through begging for example. This is not the same as the 'individual growth' of learning a new mystical practice or absorbing the text of the saints. It is a kind of 'pruning' which perfects the interior of the sufi, and it is this which might prove the most objectionable to the new student. Imagine someone saying to you: give up your friends, they do not follow the Way of God; give up your livelihood and take to a more humane and loving way of life; go out and sell crafts upon the streets so that you can see the meanness of the social person. These are things which a sheikh might say, and yet if we find them objectionable and have the leeway to refuse, then we may miss a very valuable opportunity to perfect our soul. I wish to make it plain that I am *NOT* in a relationship with a human sheikh at this time of the kind I have observed above. My comments are based solely on brief exposure to texts and communities which call themselves 'Sufi', as well as to similar groups and sources. Alaykum assalam, my kin. Haramullah tyagi@houseofkaos.abyss.com From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Jan 6 04:25:47 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08067; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 23:51:41 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA04556; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 23:25:54 -0500 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA04505; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 23:25:48 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id XAA09032 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Fri, 5 Jan 1996 23:25:47 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 23:25:47 -0500 Message-Id: <960105232545_84632230@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re cigarettes [was Re: Abu Yazid al-Bistami and the disciple + comment] Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: dear Jabriel, may your lungs celebrate the air that it passing through them! may Allah resonate through the oxygen that runs from the lungs up through the jugular artery and all throughout! in peace, Jinavamsa In a message dated 96-01-05 14:25:23 EST, you write: >Your dearest brother with but a limited >capacity. Jabriel. 45 days now without cigarrettes! >----------------------------------------- > Jabriel Hanafi From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Jan 6 05:02:33 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17702; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 00:19:34 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA07749; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 00:02:48 -0500 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA07737; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 00:02:40 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA06833 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 00:02:33 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 00:02:33 -0500 Message-Id: <960106000233_33224002@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Yusuf Ali translation Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: thank you Mateen, are there any more recent printings of the Yusuf Ali translation and commentary available, then, which keep all of the 1938 version? I mean, one available in the USA or otherwise orderable? also, could you explain briefly the terms: Wahabi "shirk" (polytheism) "kufr" (disbelief), and "bid'a" (innovation) ? Or do your brief glosses capture what the Arabic terms mean? thank you again, Jinavamsa In a message dated 96-01-05 19:57:51 EST, you write: >Subj: Re: Yusuf Ali translation >Date: 96-01-05 19:57:51 EST >From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) >Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >Reply-to: tariqas@europe.std.com >To: tariqas@europe.std.com >Jinavamsa, > >hello, > >The verses you refer to were Abdullah Yusuf Ali's I believe. >These passages were "expurgated" for being to Sufic! The original >translation has been retained for the most part, but some changes were >made. However the commentary was extensively censored, modified and >added too. (Things like the verse "in them are men who love to purify >themselves" are commented 'this means cleaning themselves after >using the bathroom.' and suchlike!). > >Remember, Saudi Arabia is a Wahabi nation, which is dedicated to >eliminating the perceived "shirk" (polytheism), "kufr" (disbelief), and >"bid'a" >(innovation) of the Sufis. And in this they are of course killing the essence >of Islam. > >peace! > >--mateen siddiqui > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Jan 6 07:06:46 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA28343; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 02:27:30 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA17679; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 02:06:49 -0500 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA17672; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 02:06:47 -0500 From: ASHA101@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id CAA03662 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 02:06:46 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 02:06:46 -0500 Message-Id: <960106020646_108001058@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: paradox Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >>> something we call "paradox" is an artifact of language and perspective -- i.e., the mind world -- not truth.<<< Quite right paradox is a tool. It is like a dual focus practice. That is why I used the Khidr/Moses story, the tool Moses was using was to look from one perspective only, his own. Through dual focus one gains perspective. To quote a friend,"It is not good enough to assume that things are maya. That would be the negative aspect of it; the positive would be to ask 'but what are they?" >>> In this case,"individuality" is something that happens at one level, and "community" at another.<<< What levels are you reffering to? At the level of being a human being studiying spirituality or hoping for realization they seem to me to be at the same level, both physical/psychical/social/political/even soulful elements. And are you considering paradox a mind bind? I'm considering it one means to put the mind into the state of intuition, as it is discovering the intention that I'm interested in. >>>and it may even be that neither is realized in their fullness or completion without the other.<<< Exactly the point. The paradox of the paradox is that there is some realitiy to it. It was way back when logic was invented that someone realized (Aristotle especially) that things tend to exist in pairs, light/shadow, male/female, up/down that sort of thing. But really it is (as you say) just a tool of perception. Asha From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sat Jan 6 08:18:32 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09056; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 03:38:27 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id DAA21334; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 03:18:34 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id DAA21329; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 03:18:32 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01HZO9BSR0Z490POOD@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Sat, 06 Jan 1996 02:18:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 06 Jan 1996 02:18:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: submission To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <01HZO9BSR0Z690POOD@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@facteur.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Mateen-- Would you be willing to list "all of the attendant meanings" --or suggest as many as you can--of "He who knows himself knows his God." ("Man 9arafa nafsahu 9arafa rabahu.")? =Mackie= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Sun Jan 7 02:13:20 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08929; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:46:23 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA15984; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:24:15 -0500 Received: from host.taconic.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA15979; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:24:13 -0500 From: omegapub@taconic.net Received: from ch_anx_p14.taconic.net by host.taconic.net; (5.65/1.1.8.2/13Jul95-1105AM) id AA32476; Sat, 6 Jan 1996 18:25:42 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Jan 96 18:13:20 PST Subject: Re: Yusuf Ali translation To: tariqas@facteur.std.com X-Mailer: Chameleon V0.05, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 5 Jan 1996 16:00:15 -0800 Mateen Siddiqui wrote: >The verses you refer to were Abdullah Yusuf Ali's I believe. >These passages were "expurgated" for being to Sufic! The original >translation has been retained for the most part, but some changes >were made. However the commentary was extensively censored, >modified and added too. (Things like the verse "in them are men who >love to purify themselves" are commented 'this means cleaning >themselves after using the bathroom.' and suchlike!). >>--mateen siddiqui Mateen, Could you also offer some sense of when the changes you refer to were made? For example, I recently came across an edition of Yusuf Ali's translation copyrighted 1946 (by Khalil Al-Rawaf), and I am unclear whether this is closer to the original 1934 edition, or if the expurgation of parts held to be objectionable had already been done. Can you, or someone else, clarify this for me? Thank you. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Abi'l-Khayr E-mail: omegapub@taconic.net Date: 01/06/96 Time: 18:13:20 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 8 08:15:27 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19972; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 03:42:45 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id DAA06021; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 03:15:34 -0500 Received: from dns1.uga.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id DAA06003; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 03:15:30 -0500 Received: from cacimbo.ggy.uga.edu (cacimbo.ggy.uga.edu [128.192.40.157]) by dns1.uga.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id DAA13994 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 03:15:29 -0500 Received: (from btaylor@localhost) by cacimbo.ggy.uga.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id DAA00983; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 03:15:28 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 03:15:27 -0500 (EST) From: "B. Taylor" X-Sender: btaylor@cacimbo To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: submission In-Reply-To: <01HZO9BSR0Z690POOD@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Sat, 6 Jan 1996 MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu wrote: > Mateen-- > > Would you be willing to list "all of the attendant meanings" > --or suggest as many as you can--of "He who knows himself knows his > God." ("Man 9arafa nafsahu 9arafa rabahu.")? > For those interested, Ibn 'Arabi discusses this topic in an essay in the book entitled _What the Seeker Needs_ published by Threshold. I leant the book out but I think that it is in the essay called "The One Alone". -Brad PS- Does anyone know a mail order source of Ibn 'Arabi's _Tarjuman al-Ashwaq_ in English? Thank you for any leads. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 8 16:31:51 1996 Received: from relay5.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25210; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:55:25 -0500 Received: from europe.std.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxqp16598; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:54:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA10674; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:31:57 -0500 Received: from relay5.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA10668; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:31:54 -0500 From: Hafizullah@aol.com Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxqo12217; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:31:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA20083 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:31:51 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 11:31:51 -0500 Message-Id: <960108113143_35223728@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Abu Yazid al-Bistami and the disciple + comment Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: In a message dated 96-01-05 14:25:23 EST, you write: >the diffrence be between Islam and Christianity and thus the concept of >trinity In terms of the metaphysics rather than doctrine, and sufism rather than the Islam of the mosque (I assume that's what you want): It's the difference between implicit and explicit, of map vs territory, and of emphasis. There is an _experience_ that one can have of how things are wired up that has been interpreted and reified by Christian doctrine into something called the Trinity. You can have this experience regardless of your path or religion, if you are engaged in a serious and uncompromising experiential search for the inner truth. Islam emphasizes the unity of God rather than these other aspects, and so this experience is usually something spoken about between a student and his/her shaikh after the student encounters it on the inner planes, rather than something put into public verbal teaching than can become a mind-bind. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 9 03:00:56 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12863; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 22:29:41 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA01076; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 22:01:02 -0500 Received: from inside.cruzio.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA01051; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 22:00:56 -0500 Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 22:00:56 -0500 Received: from pine196.cruzio.com by inside.cruzio.com id aa21847; 8 Jan 96 18:57 PST X-Sender: dances@mail.cruzio.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: dances Subject: trinity inrelation to everything Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: >In a message dated 96-01-05 14:25:23 EST, you write: > >>the diffrence be between Islam and Christianity and thus the concept of >>trinity There seems to be a basis in the science aspect of the world for the concept of trinity. Often two seperate and completely different substances will merge thier essences losing their individuality in the merging acquiring new abilities new properties that either of the two original substances didn't have PRIOR to their merging ONLY thru the third substance acting on both. I call this Third force. Mr Gurdjieff, may His soul be at peace, expounded this third force to no end. A vehicle can be third force. Mohammed, may He and all his Family be at peace, had Bharaq (The holy vehicle) to span the distance or veils if you will between Him and God. Though God only knows what IS necessary in any situation :) Much has been said of Jesus through out the centuries since his arising upon this planet. We are so far removed from the legends passed down to us that unless God enlightens us personally we may never know the truth. Taking in to account the legend of Osirus amoung many other Arising beings, I am personally saying I believe in the trinity as much to say Mohammed, peace unto Him and His Family, was the same as Jesus : a mediater for some to reach the Ocean thru his Divine Riverness. May not the Drop be a son of the Father the River? And so on for the relationship between the Master(River) and the Ocean(Allah). What is this fear of Fatherhood? I believe that Jesus died and descended to Hell to relieve those that suffered (A stepping stone across suffering) (No greater thing but that a man lay down His life for the Friend) and Arose on the Third (not second or fourth day) day. His was a body of light according to the "legends" (If thy eye be single thy whole body be full of light). There are different stages to this concept of a body being light. Jesus mentioned many time we are in darkness; we sleep; we are not awake; light is a catalyst a third force. Many times it is mentioned having eyes they do not see; hearing they do not hear. What are these strange words? Can you apply them to what your Master asks of you? Be unselfish; hold the door open for that elderly person. Humility and kindness come from God. A raindrop, dripping from a cloud, Was ashamed when it saw the sea. `Who am I where there is a sea?' it said. When it saw itself with the eye of humility, A shell nurtured it in its embrace. Saadi of Shiraz (c. 1200 AD) These are my thoughts, as unrealized as I am, I wish Peace upon you Brothers and Sisters James of thr Nimatullahi Sufi Order From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Mon Jan 8 23:16:24 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03599; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:14:21 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA06721; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 22:41:08 -0500 Received: from orange.printronix.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA06682; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 22:41:03 -0500 Message-Id: <199601090341.WAA06682@europe.std.com> Received: from VMS MAIL by orange.printronix.com (NRC MAIL Version 1.3); 8-JAN-1996 19:41:21 Date: Mon, 8 JAN 96 19:36:22 From: "M.I.S. DEPT" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: RE: trinity inrelation to everything X-Vms-To: ORANGE::IPMAIL%"tariqas@facteur.std.com" X-Vms-Cc: NOORDIN Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Preachers and believers have tried very hard to explain the very abstract concept of trinity since time immemorial. But there are many followers of Christianity who just could not understand, just as I myself get more confused with your explanation. If I am not mistaken, this is the very fundamental reason why the Protestants reject this concept. Regards, Noordin Singapore From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 9 05:10:08 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26430; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 00:40:33 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA16961; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 00:10:49 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA16914; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 00:10:45 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01HZS8TNZ7AO90Q0VG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Mon, 08 Jan 1996 23:10:08 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 23:10:08 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: submission To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <01HZS8TO0JIQ90Q0VG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@facteur.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: As a response to my request to Mateen that she give us her personal sense of Ibn 'Arabi's "Whoso Knoweth Himself..."--Brad suggested we consult Ibn 'Arabi's *What the Seeker Needs*. While I don't disagree necessarily with Brad's suggestion, I do hope that Mateen will still be willing to give us her sense of Ibn 'Arabi's formula. I guess I am asking for her individuality on this point since I do not believe that her own individuality will diminish the universality of Ibn 'Arabi's meaning. I have often been in situations where i was discussing The Qur'aan with a Muslim professor of Islamic Studies, when I would ask for an individuality understanding or a communal understanding of this or that passage of The Book --and get back as responses only passages quoted from The Book. I suppose it is my Western orientation, but I cannot understand why when asked a question about The Qur'aan or about hadith or about Sunnah, many scholars respond not with a thoughful, searching discussion but with quotation after quotation after quotation. Then all i am left to say is, "Ahyiiwah!", which translates something like the British "Quite!". My point is that Brad's reaction to my request to Mateen was to tell which book of Ibn 'Arabi's to consult. But at this quiet moment I want to consult the text of Mateen's mind, since it iwas Mateen herself who suggested that there are a myriad of attendant meaninings to the Muhyiddin's formula. I agree with her and simply wish to wish ones she senses to be inherent in the formula. I believe that true Sufism is not afraid of this kind of discussion. Once in a while, after I have posted a thought on a topic, some people have contacted me privately to continue the discussion. Having thought some about this, I now see that i prefer to keep such discussion public, which, of course, is what a discussion group is all about. I believe that the list members lose whrn the discussion suddenly become private. If I am going to contradict myself or reveal unwittingly that I can be very schizoid about *sacriture* (the study and practice of sacred language), I want to to be brave enough to do these things publicly among friends. Brad wondered about some publishing or clearing houses that we might be familiar with. One that i would suggest is BESHARA FOUNDATION P.O. bOX 422283 San Francisco, CA 94141-2283 Tel 415-388-5932 =Mackie Blanton= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 9 06:50:13 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09650; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 02:19:03 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA25044; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 01:50:29 -0500 Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA25039; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 01:50:21 -0500 Received: from localhost (darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.6.4/8.6.4) id RAA16276; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 17:50:16 +1100 Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 17:50:13 +1100 (EST) From: Fred Rice To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: trinity inrelation to everything In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum, I can't comment on much of the previous stuff (since my knowledge is not sufficient to), but as far as I am aware, Jesus is never quoted in the gospels as saying unambiguously "I am God." Also, we know Hallaj said "I am the Truth" and Abu Yazid al-Bistami said "Glory be to me!", yet they did not mean the existence of a trinity... On the other hand, Frithjof Schuon has written some interesting stuff on this topic, but its been ages since I've read Schuon.... Peace, Farid-ud-Dien (Fred Rice) From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 9 07:11:39 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13531; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 02:40:30 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA26236; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 02:12:07 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA26231; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 02:12:04 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01HZSCTY1RB890Q0VG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Tue, 09 Jan 1996 01:11:39 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 01:11:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: trinity inrelation to everything To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <01HZSCTY1RBA90Q0VG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@facteur.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: It is not true, as Noordin (Singapore) has suggested, that "Prostestants reject" the concept of the trinity. It is true that some Prostestants do; and those who do refer to other christians as trinitarians and to themselves as non-trinitarians. However, if we wish to concern ourselves with any christian concept, we must bear in mind that there are 30,000 christian denominations in the world today. Prostestantism emerged in the 16th century. Christianity had fifteen hundred before than to develop. During the first years of those fifteen hundred years, the very first christians--those who today called themselves "Orthodox Christians" to distinguish themselves from Catholics and Prostestants--developed a body of sacred commentary on many christian concepts, including the trinity. The one which ought to interest Sufis is the concept of Theosis or Deification, whose formula reads "Divinity became human so that human beings could take on the seal of divinity." Another way to translate this is to say, "God became human so that human beings could become gods." These first christians made a distinction between Divinity, which belonged to the Godhead, and deification, which was inherited by mankind. God is Divine. Mankind is deified. It is only Eastern christians today who still follow this dogma. The West, being what the West is, has lost it, having first given it up as being too mystical. Obviously, from a Sufi point of view, there is more affinity among the Islamic principle of the Ninety-Nine Attributes of Allah, the Jewish principle of the Ten Attributes of Adonay Elohim, and the Eastern Orthodox Christian principle of the Three Persons of the One Godhead. The strength inherent in the Sufi Way is that Sufism stands as the seal of unity. Judaism oofers the knowledge that God is One. islam offers the most direct path to God. Eastern Orthodox Christianity (the first christianity still extant) offers the knowledge that there is a Godhead worshipped for its Fatherliness, its Redeemerness, and its Spirit. Surely these principles are not beyond Sufism. There is little confusion about Sufism affinity to monotheism. The confusion arises when Sufism steps outside of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam to illuminate principles that one can also find in Taoism and Buddhism. Of these principles, reincarnation is probably the most vexing. While there is a teaching on reincarnation among orthodox jews, orthodox (sunni) muslims and all christians ( I believe) have no mosque-oriented or church-oriented teachings on this concept. All blesed things come from the East. But it appears that all blessed things can be discussed simultaneously only in the West. And it appears that Sufis in the West are the ones best poised to smooth the path of discussion. =Mackie Blanton= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 9 07:38:50 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19713; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 03:10:38 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA27845; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 02:38:56 -0500 Received: from netcom5.netcom.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA27838; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 02:38:53 -0500 Received: by netcom5.netcom.com (8.6.12/Netcom) id XAA04227; Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:38:50 -0800 Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 23:38:50 -0800 (PST) From: Steven Finkelman Subject: Re: trinity inrelation to everything To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: affirming, denying, reconsiling. I have rediscorved in my essence that these are true forces in (wo)man. I have discorved that by expanding the heart through breath one extends the front of the body, afirming force. when the heart closes down, the back is fuller, denying force. By expanding and bending the upper spine backward, negativity may be overcome. It takes the mind, will to see this, reconsiling. Sheik Sadiq From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 9 07:45:42 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21157; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 03:18:59 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA29172; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 02:51:07 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id CAA29165; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 02:51:05 -0500 Received: from mail.nyc.pipeline.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14394; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 02:45:48 -0500 Received: from pipe2.nyc.pipeline.com (sbryquer@pipe2.nyc.pipeline.com [198.80.32.42]) by mail.nyc.pipeline.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA27794 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 02:45:44 -0500 (EST) From: Simon Bryquer Received: (sbryquer@localhost) by pipe2.nyc.pipeline.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id CAA02010; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 02:45:42 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 02:45:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199601090745.CAA02010@pipe2.nyc.pipeline.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: submission Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 08 Jan 1996 MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu said: >As a response to my request to Mateen that she give us her personal sense of >Ibn 'Arabi's "Whoso Knoweth Himself..."--Brad suggested we consult Ibn 'Arabi's >*What the Seeker Needs*. While I don't disagree necessarily with Brad's >suggestion, I do hope that Mateen will still be willing to give us her sense of >Ibn 'Arabi's formula. I guess I am asking for her individuality on this point >since I do not believe that her own individuality will diminish the >universality of Ibn 'Arabi's meaning. > I have often been in situations where i was discussing The Qur'aan with a >Muslim professor of Islamic Studies, when I would ask for an individuality >understanding or a communal understanding of this or that passage of The Book >--and get back as responses only passages quoted from The Book. I suppose it >is my Western orientation, but I cannot understand why when asked a question >about The Qur'aan or about hadith or about Sunnah, many scholars respond not >with a thoughful, searching discussion but with quotation after quotation after >quotation. Then all i am left to say is, "Ahyiiwah!", which translates >something like the British "Quite!". XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Quite! I also would like to see more of this individual understanding, instead of a chorus of mystic sounding parrots. And I say this with the full understanding that here in the group it is not as if you're talking to your shaykh -- and therefore the 'adab' is different. The same goes for prayer, you know what Rumi said: If it is question of pointing your behind to the sky and camel can do it better. Best, Simon Bryquer From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 9 15:07:37 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA21076; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 10:43:30 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA27551; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 10:07:40 -0500 Received: from inside.cruzio.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA27534; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 10:07:37 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 10:07:37 -0500 Received: from pine196.cruzio.com by inside.cruzio.com id aa03943; 9 Jan 96 7:04 PST X-Sender: dances@mail.cruzio.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: dances Subject: Re: trinity inrelation to everything Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: That was beautifully written and concise it seems. I saved one section to comment on: There is little confusion about Sufism affinity to monotheism. The confusion arises when Sufism steps outside of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam to illuminate principles that one can also find in Taoism and Buddhism. Of these principles, reincarnation is probably the most vexing. While there is a teaching on reincarnation among orthodox jews, orthodox (sunni) muslims and all christians ( I believe) have no mosque-oriented or church-oriented teachings on this concept. the concept of reincarnation is strange. re + in + carnate my assumption is that carnate means to inhabit so the whole thing means to do over like many things are REDONE in the time sense as we are creatures of time :one thing after another. The first public declaration of eternal recurrance occured thru P.D. Ouspenskii's book "in search of the miracoulous". Recurrance means simply imagine your life a circle. Your birth and death occupy the same spot on the circle. They are connected by the powerful forces of birth(esctacy) and death(unknown) but apparently these twin forces are equal hence one uniting both ends of life. At death we are trapped by the glue of our life and travel and experience everything as it once was EXACTLY. think of the dirt path home you trod every evening cutting thru the back alley if you never stray a rut develops deeper and deeper that is our life without a Master to see outside ourselves. deja vu for me means ... I am here...a sense of the deepening of the moment...I awaken a bit. The funny thing of those moments I don't know what is to happen next yet at times ha mostly or at khaniqah I have felt almost two events silmultaneously...a newness occur! at any rate theres been poetry; literature done on eternal recurrance available. I think any possibility of reincarnation is if possible a bitmore advanced and implys going into someone else body---hopefully ha somewhat unoccupied :) perforce bodies must have some ego or whatever so reincarnation implys a powerful shift thru out the universe for one ego to move to make room for the incoming I like the idea of recurrance over reincarnation . It makes me want to be more careful of my actions as any changes implys tremendous upheavel to any world event scenario. The man who commits suicide ... wait!...heres a story I read many years ago. SF Chronicle. A man ran into TransAmerica pyramid building exclaiming he wanted to see God! He went up 20 or so stories found a empty elevater shaft and with no...hesitation jumped down...He lived and said he saw God. Think of the weight of that experience. from birth he must travel to that exact point...a fulcrum coloring all of his life still unconscious of that impending moment but I am thinking such hot experience must heat the coils of before and after...to understand what I said you need to see mans life as a spiral and certain moments touch each other where they lie next to each other dna of course is a good example of a spiral..could be connection. Also the solatsystem seen from outside is also such a spiral over a long time for us. So above and below us there is spirals at work. God's creation Probably I could go on....But time pulls me :) From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 9 16:44:55 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09367; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:00:52 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA10750; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:45:02 -0500 Received: from relay2.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id LAA10735; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:44:59 -0500 From: JHulvey@aol.com Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxug23423; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:44:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LAA06926 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:44:55 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:44:55 -0500 Message-Id: <960109114128_86561839@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: JHulvey@aol.com Subject: Re: submission Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > Once in a while, after I have posted a thought on a topic, >some people have contacted me privately to continue the >discussion. Having thought some >about this, I now see that i prefer to keep such discussion public, >which, of course, is what a discussion group is all about. I believe >that the list members lose whrn the discussion suddenly become >private. If I am going to contradict myself or reveal unwittingly that I >can be very schizoid about *sacriture* (the study and practice of >sacred language), I want to to be brave enough to do these things >publicly among friends. Your comment seems very much to the point concerning submission. While I'm not always sure how much "discusion" is worth in these matters, I feel that to put ourselves in a position to look foolish, say, or reveal our arrogance is a part of learning. It does seem helpful in that we can get this attitude or behavior "out there" so that we can "see it" or someone can point it out to us. Part of submission seems to me to consist of being thankful for any "progress" we may have made and forgiving of our own lack of understanding. To quote Rumi via Wm. Whitney (thanks, paneagle! Forgive me for inserting explanations since I dipped in at different points in the poem and didn't want to foster confusion...): >Sometimes He weaves knowledge in the Heart >Sometimes He destroys one's knowledge... >In the end, when Your (God's) grace opens his (the seeker's) way >he is saved from changing from color to color. The "bravery" which you advise, Mackie, could spring from such a realisation. with appreciation, Jules From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 9 17:55:19 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25663; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:57:16 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA20593; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 12:55:27 -0500 Received: from dns1.uga.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id MAA20568; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 12:55:23 -0500 Received: from cacimbo.ggy.uga.edu (cacimbo.ggy.uga.edu [128.192.40.157]) by dns1.uga.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) with ESMTP id MAA19022 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 12:55:22 -0500 Received: (from btaylor@localhost) by cacimbo.ggy.uga.edu (8.6.10/8.6.10) id MAA23181; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 12:55:20 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 12:55:19 -0500 (EST) From: "B. Taylor" X-Sender: btaylor@cacimbo To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: submission In-Reply-To: <01HZS8TO0JIQ90Q0VG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Mon, 8 Jan 1996 MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu wrote: > As a response to my request to Mateen that she give us her personal > sense of Ibn 'Arabi's "Whoso Knoweth Himself..."--Brad suggested we consult > Ibn 'Arabi's *What the Seeker Needs*. While I don't disagree necessarily > with Brad's suggestion, I do hope that Mateen will still be willing to give > us her sense of Ibn 'Arabi's formula. I guess I am asking for her > individuality on this point since I do not believe that her own individuality > will diminish the universality of Ibn 'Arabi's meaning. and > My point is that Brad's reaction to my request to Mateen was to tell > which book of Ibn 'Arabi's to consult. But at this quiet moment I want to > consult the text of Mateen's mind, since it iwas Mateen herself who suggested > that there are a myriad of attendant meaninings to the Muhyiddin's formula. I > agree with her and simply wish to wish ones she senses to be inherent in the > formula. I believe that true Sufism is not afraid of this kind of discussion. Dear Mackie: I apologize for not making my intentions clearer. In making reference to Ibn 'Arabi, I did not intend to diminish the universality of Mateen's meaning. When you posed the question my heart sped up, because I had just read that essay not to long ago and was excited about the discussion that was (and has) begun. I had read Ibn 'Arabi's experience with it and without it my experience would be different (not "better", just different). My suggestion was for those of us have little interaction with Sufi community aside from books and maybe this email list. Some "masterless" Sufis visit the tomb's of dead Saints, for now I visit their tomes. I had no intention of suggesting we deny "individuality" for the sake of some spiritual "authority". By "authority", I mean in the sense of "more vailid" not in the sense of "more experienced" like a master. The only "Authority" that seems to be "more valid" is Allah (al-Haqq). There is no god but God - la ilaha illa'llah. Atleast this is my understanding. When I turn the computer off in a minute, its back to the greater jihad. When my nafs is "winning" (almost all of the time!) and I feel the pain of "seperation", questions begin to bubble, I seek answers in more questions, in discussions in books, in discussions in my heart. When I can not "read" the "signs", I turn to those who have experience in the path where my questions lie - Allah, Mohammad, Ibn 'Arabi, other travelers, myself (from the perspective of tashbih/nearness) in order to remember or be reminded of Truth (al-Haqq). My "individualality" is Allah's (from the perspective of tashbih/nearness), your's, Mateen's, Ibn 'Arabi's and maybe something of the "Third Force" that James mentioned in another post - maybe a mixing of all the signs that hints at previously unnoticed or forgotten meanings or as Borges writes "that imminence of revelation that is not yet produced." > > Once in a while, after I have posted a thought on a topic, some people > have contacted me privately to continue the discussion. Having thought some > about this, I now see that i prefer to keep such discussion public, which, of > course, is what a discussion group is all about. >From my experience, public versus private tends to come from a fear of being "misunderstood". When I read your reply, my fears were confirmed. Your interpretation being far from my intention created all sorts of problems inside of me. But then I began to wonder about these feelings that you have so beautifully inspired (Praise belongs to Allah). I begin to wonder about why I do not want to be interepreted as belittling someone's perspective. And then, I thought, well in order for this to happen, your comments had to come in conflict with my nafs (lower self) and from the existence of some sort of pride about being associated with an idea that I percieved as being correct or more benificial to be associated with. In other words, defining or delimiting myself with ideas of belief that were not for Allah. Since this "knowing of my self" did not help me to "know God" then I relized that sneaky Iblis was up to no good again! So, I've now experienced an aspect of the importance of misuderstanding. This reminds me then of some of the reading I've been doing about Qalanders who dressed and often acted in "impious" ways in order to hide piety and not flaunt or boast it. It seemed they wanted to create misunderstanding so as not to be involved with the egotism of wanting to be seen as pious before society. > Brad wondered about some publishing or clearing houses that we might > be familiar with. One that i would suggest is > BESHARA FOUNDATION > Thanks! Love, Brad From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 9 23:20:31 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04515; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 18:59:59 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA00546; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 18:25:49 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA00530; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 18:25:47 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01HZTBPBLQG290Q6EK@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for tariqas@facteur.std.com; Tue, 09 Jan 1996 17:20:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 17:20:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: submission To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Message-Id: <01HZTBPBLQG490Q6EK@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: IN%"tariqas@facteur.std.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Brad-- I appreciate *all* of your understanding and the nearness of your way of expressing it. The list has grown though the enhancement from your words. Mateen-- I understand that you are Mateen Taher. I apologize for getting it wrong, Ya Taher. =Mackie= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 10 01:01:18 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29746; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 20:42:00 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA12990; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 20:01:25 -0500 Received: from relay3.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA12983; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 20:01:23 -0500 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxvo20341; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 20:01:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA12629 for tariqas@europe.std.com; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 20:01:18 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 20:01:18 -0500 Message-Id: <960109200116_36748276@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: egotism Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: dear Michael, In a message dated 96-01-09 17:33:48 EST, you write: >Perhaps I am only revealing my own character here but I assume that this >problem of pride is universal. I was asking my shaykh about this problem. >He said, "This is why we must always say astaghfurallah (allah forgive me) >after each good deed." >Whenever we deside 'to be' something; pious, impious, noble, muslim, >good, sufi, whatever, we are commiting idolatry. We can not help it. >It can not be avoided. When we say 'I' to anything, we are adolaters. To start in a Buddhist way, we might say that we are moving into mistakenly creating an identity out of what is a moment in reality: a drop in rich reality that is Allah/God, and that the confusion (sin=poorly aimed thought or actions that follow from such thinking, isn't that the etymology in the Arabic??) is to separate an aspect of reality/Allah/God from the totality, ripping asunder [where did *that* word come from??? ... :-) ....] the original divine oneness. (I wouldn't say that this ended in a particularly Buddhist way!) > >aside->>> This may be why there is no "original sin", ie, a newborn >has no 'I' hence no sin. > >The lowest man does not sin, he can not, no more than a cow can or I must have more of a sense that all men (human beings) --- even the "lowest" [whatever that might be] ---, have the capacity to split from the Oneness, and if this is sinning, then I take it all men can make this confusion. Or are you saying something else? Jinavamsa >a dog. He is an animal without sin. Sin is only for those that have. >So we must thank allah for our sins because they are only sins if >we have knowledge of them and knowledge is a gift. > >-Michael- > > > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 10 02:01:48 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29753; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 21:33:44 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA19560; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 21:01:27 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id VAA19549; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 21:01:24 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id VAA28761 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 21:03:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.178]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 22:13:38 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960110020148.0032856c@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 21:01:48 -0500 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: trinity inrelation to everything Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:11 AM 1/9/96 -0600, MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu wrote: Dear Sisters and Brothers, Reading the interesting comments of Mackie Blanton and others on this subject I was reminded of this passage from THE GATHAS (p 102) by Hazrat Inayat Khan. No doubt the trinity has mystical significance to many religions and ways of thinking and has been symbolized by the triangle in many cultures. THE SYMBOLISM OF THE TRIANGLE "The triangle represents the beginning, the continuous and the end. The triangle is the sign of life which has appeared in three forms, of which the idea of the Trinity is symbolical. The idea of these three aspects of life has existed for a very long time among Hindus, who named it Trimurti. As in the Christian church the Trinity consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, so among Hindus the Trimurti consists of Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh: Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Sustainer and Mahesh or Shiva, the Destroyer. By the word Destroyer destruction is not meant but change. The triangle in all its forms is the basic outline of all form that exists in the world. The triangle has a horizontal line in it and a perpendicular line, and two triangles can very well form a square. The hand, the head, the leg, the palm, the foot all show in their form the triangle as the principal outline. In the leaf, fruit, tree or mountain the triangle is the outline. The triangle is the riddle which has within it the secret of this life of variety. But for these three different aspects, which stand opposite each other, man would not be able to enjoy life; at the same time it is these three aspects again which are the cause of all the illusion; and if the riddle of the idea of trinity has been solved and out of trinity unity has become manifest, then the purpose of this idea of trinity is fulfilled. One can understand this by realizing the truth that it is not three that are one but one that is three. The beginning and end of all things is one, it is the repetition of one which makes two and it is this division which produces three. In this riddle of the idea of trinity lies the secret of the whole life. The three aspects in which life has manifested and of which the triangle is the symbol are the knower, the known and the knowing faculty -- the seer, the seen and the faculty of seeing." Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 10 05:05:24 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05315; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 00:41:51 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA08896; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 00:10:51 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id AAA08889; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 00:10:49 -0500 From: ZIAulHUQ@aol.com Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16108; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 00:05:25 -0500 Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA09066 for tariqas@world.std.com; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 00:05:24 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 00:05:24 -0500 Message-Id: <960109234841_87024507@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Tariqats in Turkey ? Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Salaam Aleikum, I will be visiting Turkey this spring, and would appreciate any contacts anyone could provide me with . I am most interested in meeting Mevelvis, but will go where Allah leads, so contacts with any tariqat would be of help. YA HU, Z From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 10 10:23:29 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA16401; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 10:56:32 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA21568; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 10:26:43 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA21550; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 10:26:40 -0500 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20971; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 10:24:29 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 10:24:29 +0001 (EST) From: Steve H Rose Subject: status of sufi list at think.net To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. Can anyone tell me the definite status of the sufi list at think.net? Is it still running? What is the subscription info? I tried sometime back based upon my information, but it appeared to be correct. Insh'Allah, I need to be able to share correct information with others. Thanks! habib rose From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Tue Jan 9 21:56:39 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22365; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:47:35 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA29253; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 17:28:39 -0500 Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id RAA29247; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 17:28:36 -0500 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA25851; Tue, 9 Jan 96 13:56:24 PST Received: from antares by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 9 Jan 96 13:56:24 PST Received: from kirin.Tymnet.COM by antares.Tymnet.COM (8.6.5/UCB) id NAA14754; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:56:23 -0800 Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA03582; Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:56:39 -0800 Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 13:56:39 -0800 From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore) Message-Id: <9601092156.AA03582@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: egotism X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > This reminds me then of some of the reading I've been doing about > Qalanders who dressed and often acted in "impious" ways in order to hide > piety and not flaunt or boast it. It seemed they wanted to create > misunderstanding so as not to be involved with the egotism of wanting to > be seen as pious before society. > But still he must be involved in the egotism of thinking himself 'good' for his efforts. It seems that in all 'good' acts there is some pride. Even if we pray in a closet 'not to be seen of men' we will be proud of our hiding. Perhaps I am only revealing my own character here but I assume that this problem of pride is universal. I was asking my shaykh about this problem. He said, "This is why we must always say astaghfurallah (allah forgive me) after each good deed." Whenever we deside 'to be' something; pious, impious, noble, muslim, good, sufi, whatever, we are commiting idolatry. We can not help it. It can not be avoided. When we say 'I' to anything, we are adolaters. aside->>> This may be why there is no "original sin", ie, a newborn has no 'I' hence no sin. The lowest man does not sin, he can not, no more than a cow can or a dog. He is an animal without sin. Sin is only for those that have. So we must thank allah for our sins because they are only sins if we have knowledge of them and knowledge is a gift. -Michael- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 10 18:05:25 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA27412; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:48:50 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA15493; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:18:34 -0500 Received: from halon.sybase.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id NAA15488; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:18:30 -0500 Received: from sybase.sybase.com (nntp1.sybase.com) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA24640; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 10:18:19 -0800 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by sybase.sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.4) id AA11810; Wed, 10 Jan 96 10:18:13 PST Received: by serii.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id AA03023; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 10:05:25 -0800 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 10:05:25 -0800 From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <9601101805.AA03023@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Tariqats in Turkey ? X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: wa alaykum salam, You can meet with Naqshbandis in Istanbul, Konya and Cyprus. Simply go in any large mosque and ask for Sheik Nazim Kibrisi's people. Insha-Allah someone will know one of them. In Fatih Mahala of Istanbul there is a Naqshbandi Mosque of Shaykh Esat as well. Ask around for directions, as most people in Fatih District are religious. --mateen siddiqui ________________________________________ Naqshbandi-Haqqani Sufi Foundation URL: http://www.best.com/~informe/haqqani/haqqani.html [ in 9 languages] From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 10 19:56:23 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26551; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:10:21 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA29042; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 15:12:20 -0500 Received: from halon.sybase.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id PAA29019; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 15:12:15 -0500 Received: from sybase.sybase.com (nntp1.sybase.com) by halon.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4/SybFW4.0) id AA26479; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 12:12:20 -0800 Received: from serii.sybase.com ([158.159.40.63]) by sybase.sybase.com (4.1/SMI-4.1/SybH3.4) id AA08488; Wed, 10 Jan 96 12:12:14 PST Received: by serii.sybase.com (5.x/SMI-4.1/SybEC3.2) id AA03069; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:56:23 -0800 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:56:23 -0800 From: mateens@sybase.com (Mateen Siddiqui) Message-Id: <9601101956.AA03069@serii.sybase.com> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: Yusuf Ali translation X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Abi'l-Khayr, I beleive the changes were only in Saudi editions put out in the past 15 or so years. They have removed the attribution of the commentary or translation to Syed Yusuf Ali and I guess this justifies them removing what they like of his commentary and modifying his translation. There is a very recent edition which has the offending passage on purity. I think it only came out in 1995. It has more offending commentary than that, in relation to beliefs about God, but I won't go into those right now. --mateen siddiqui From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 10 21:06:38 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05196; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:57:28 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA07214; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:06:48 -0500 Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id QAA07206; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:06:43 -0500 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09634; Wed, 10 Jan 96 13:06:24 PST Received: from antares by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 10 Jan 96 13:06:24 PST Received: from kirin.Tymnet.COM by antares.Tymnet.COM (8.6.5/UCB) id NAA02384; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:06:22 -0800 Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA03989; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:06:38 -0800 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 13:06:38 -0800 From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore) Message-Id: <9601102106.AA03989@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: egotism X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: > > >The lowest man does not sin, he can not, no more than a cow can or > > I must have more of a sense that all men (human beings) --- even the "lowest" > [whatever that might be] ---, have the capacity to split from the Oneness, > and if this is sinning, then I take it all men can make this confusion. Or > are you saying something else? > Jinavamsa I feel that a person with no free-will should not be held accountable. A person who has no free-will does not have the capacity to 'split from the Oneness'. {In fact, nothing can split from the oneness, it is only our vanity that allows us to believe we can. (IMHO)}. The only people who have free will are those that have given it to Allah and here is a real paradox. In order to have free will, you must give it away. Only when you don't have it do you have it. We are free to do only one thing and that is to deny our free will. I just felt I *had* to say that. ;-) --------------- The more powerful the truth, the greater it's potential for harm if perverted even in the most minutest way. From what I understand, this has been the fate of Islam. -Michael- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 10 22:43:25 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23225; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 19:00:44 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA00565; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 18:22:08 -0500 Received: from relay7.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA00557; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 18:22:06 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from world.std.com by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxyz12043; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 18:22:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06940; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:43:16 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01HZUOK7W61S90QO2U@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for TARIQAS@WORLD.STD.COM; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:43:25 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:43:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: "Original" Sin To: TARIQAS@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HZUOK7XI9U90QO2U@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: TARIQAS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: I have no idea whether or not there is such a thing as "original sin"; but I do know that the original concept of this sin was not that it was a concrete *something*, i.e., a sin itself. The original concept of "Original Sin" (still taught among Eastern Orthodox Christians) is that it is not a sin in itself but the inheritance of the ability to sin. So I suppose that the observation among us that there is no "original sin" since "newborns have no 'I'--hence, no sin" is a correct one. We inherit the ability to have an 'I' and, therefore, we also *inherit* the ability to sin. =Mackie Blanton= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Wed Jan 10 23:21:43 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA25058; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 19:04:34 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA04352; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 18:32:36 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id SAA04285; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 18:32:28 -0500 From: MJVBEG@jazz.ucc.uno.edu Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00591; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 18:23:13 -0500 Received: from jazz.ucc.uno.edu by jazz.ucc.uno.edu (PMDF V5.0-4 #11893) id <01HZUPCD1I6E90QO2U@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> for TARIQAS@WORLD.STD.COM; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:21:43 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 17:21:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: Michael's Paradox To: TARIQAS@world.std.com Message-Id: <01HZUPCD1I6G90QO2U@jazz.ucc.uno.edu> X-Vms-To: TARIQAS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Michael's observation about free will is a very powerful one, and well put. The only freedom we have is the freedom to deny free will. When we deny free will, we deny Allah. Not desiring to deny Allah means that we give our free will to Allah. So to have free will means that we believe in Allah. To believe in Allah means that we give our free will to Allah. Hence, there is no sin, only denial or belief. If we believe, we submit our free will freely. If we believe, we can do no other. Only when we don't have free will did we once have it. We are free to do only one thing and that is to deny Allah, our free will. This is beautiful. I even now understand the power in being drawn to quote rather than explain and discusss an idea. My first compulsion was to quote Michael all over again--again and again, because nothing seemed more beautiful than the words themselves. But I resisted and chose to paraphrase them in order to enter them. Please forgive my self-delusion. But my heart is soaring at this moment. Thank you Michael. Allahhuuma. =Mackie Blanton= From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 11 00:39:51 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26171; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 20:05:42 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA12927; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 19:46:11 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA12919; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 19:46:08 -0500 Received: from sgi14.phlab.missouri.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12165; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 19:40:07 -0500 Received: (from c640429@localhost) by sgi14.phlab.missouri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id SAA02577; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 18:39:51 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 18:39:51 -0600 (CST) From: Jawad Qureshi X-Sender: c640429@sgi14.phlab.missouri.edu To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Tariqats in Turkey ? In-Reply-To: <960109234841_87024507@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 10 Jan 1996 ZIAulHUQ@aol.com wrote: > Salaam Aleikum, > > I will be visiting Turkey this spring, and would appreciate any contacts > anyone could provide me with . I am most interested in meeting Mevelvis, but > will go where Allah leads, so contacts with any tariqat would be of help. > > YA HU, > Z > Assalamo alaikum, I have many contacts in Turkey. They are all located in Ankara, though, which is not the home of that many Tariqas. If you still want their numbers, I can send them to you. Salam, Jawad. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 11 00:24:05 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06092; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 20:23:10 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA14257; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 19:57:46 -0500 Received: from tymix.Tymnet.COM by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id TAA14244; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 19:57:38 -0500 Received: by tymix.Tymnet.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13978; Wed, 10 Jan 96 16:23:48 PST Received: from antares by tymix.Tymnet.COM (in.smtpd); 10 Jan 96 16:23:48 PST Received: from kirin.Tymnet.COM by antares.Tymnet.COM (8.6.5/UCB) id QAA05302; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:23:47 -0800 Received: by kirin.Tymnet.COM (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA04057; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:24:05 -0800 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 16:24:05 -0800 From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael J. Moore) Message-Id: <9601110024.AA04057@kirin.Tymnet.COM> To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Subject: Re: "Original" Sin X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Greetings, =Mackie Blanton= > > I have no idea whether or not there is such a thing as "original > sin"; but I do know that the original concept of this sin was not that it > was a concrete *something*, i.e., a sin itself. The original concept of > "Original Sin" (still taught among Eastern Orthodox Christians) is that it > is not a sin in itself but the inheritance of the ability to sin. So I > suppose that the observation among us that there is no "original sin" since > "newborns have no 'I'--hence, no sin" is a correct one. We inherit the > ability to have an 'I' and, therefore, we also *inherit* the ability to sin. This certainly seems a more humane concept than what I was taught by the Roman Catholic nuns in fifth grade catechism. They taught that the soul was like a white sheet and that sin was like a big black stain on the sheet. {Malcom X is turning in his grave.} We are born, they taught, with the stain of 'original sin' and the only way to remove it was through the sacrament of 'Holy Roman' baptism. I don't recall whether 'original sin' was a mortal sin or a venial sin or was in a class by itself but you can be sure *it was serious*! If you died with this sin on your soul, you would go straight to hell. I asked one of the nuns once for clarification on this issue. I said, "Do you mean that all of those Protestants in building next to us are going to hell?" She squirmed a bit. Being a precocious lad, I enjoyed the moment. I had her like a worm on a hook; she would have to say it. Another moment and then a diminutive 'yes' was her answer. Astaghferallah; I haven't always been as holy as I am today. ;-) -Michael- From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 11 00:39:51 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA24010; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 20:57:28 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA18363; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 20:32:15 -0500 Received: from relay7.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id UAA18348; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 20:32:11 -0500 Received: from sgi14.phlab.missouri.edu by relay7.UU.NET with ESMTP id QQzxze19907; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 19:39:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from c640429@localhost) by sgi14.phlab.missouri.edu (8.7.1/8.7.1) id SAA02577; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 18:39:51 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 18:39:51 -0600 (CST) From: Jawad Qureshi X-Sender: c640429@sgi14.phlab.missouri.edu To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Tariqats in Turkey ? In-Reply-To: <960109234841_87024507@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 10 Jan 1996 ZIAulHUQ@aol.com wrote: > Salaam Aleikum, > > I will be visiting Turkey this spring, and would appreciate any contacts > anyone could provide me with . I am most interested in meeting Mevelvis, but > will go where Allah leads, so contacts with any tariqat would be of help. > > YA HU, > Z > Assalamo alaikum, I have many contacts in Turkey. They are all located in Ankara, though, which is not the home of that many Tariqas. If you still want their numbers, I can send them to you. Salam, Jawad. From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 11 00:38:53 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19065; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 22:39:11 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA02437; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 22:15:40 -0500 Received: from relay7.UU.NET by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id WAA02430; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 22:15:36 -0500 Received: from UTCVM.UTC.EDU by relay7.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzxze20249; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 19:44:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from UTCVM.UTC.EDU by UTCVM.UTC.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 4863; Wed, 10 Jan 96 19:43:51 EST Received: from UTCVM.UTC.EDU (NJE origin JHENRY@UTCVM) by UTCVM.UTC.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3239; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 19:43:37 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 96 19:38:53 EST From: Jim Henry in Chattanooga 423-755-4398 Subject: Re: Tariqats in Turkey ? To: tariqas@facteur.std.com In-Reply-To: <960109234841_87024507@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: <960110.194335.EST.JHENRY@UTCVM.UTC.EDU> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: On Wed, 10 Jan 1996 00:05:24 -0500 said: >Salaam Aleikum, > >I will be visiting Turkey this spring, and would appreciate any contacts >anyone could provide me with . I am most interested in meeting Mevelvis, but >will go where Allah leads, so contacts with any tariqat would be of help. > >YA HU, >Z I would suggest going to Konya an visiting the Mevlevi Mosque and let your interests be known. Talk to the workers in the carpet shops on the street in front of the mosuqe (which is considered a museum, officially). Ask for a man named Hassan Hussein. Visit the Dervish Brothers carpet shop on a side alley behind the main street. There is a direct train from Istanbul to Konya. Buses are also an option. I trust you will enjoy and learn! I know Allah will be with you. JIM From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 11 04:18:18 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20333; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 23:45:32 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA10261; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 23:18:22 -0500 Received: from inside.cruzio.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id XAA10252; Wed, 10 Jan 1996 23:18:18 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 23:18:18 -0500 Received: from pine196.cruzio.com by inside.cruzio.com id aa07188; 10 Jan 96 20:14 PST X-Sender: dances@mail.cruzio.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: dances Subject: Re: submission Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: This reminds me then of some of the reading I've been doing about Qalanders who dressed and often acted in "impious" ways in order to hide piety and not flaunt or boast it. It seemed they wanted to create misunderstanding so as not to be involved with the egotism of wanting to be seen as pious before society. Thanks to all for such good discussian , It is helpful listening to all these good hearts in print. just brief comment on the above passage. Reminds me of Gurdjieffs mention of the way of Malamat (blame). Deliberately seeking blame for the above reasons and maybe more. Guess its natural for human beings to fawn over power possessing beings whether spiritual or material power beings -The Way of Malamat- was used to hide power from those around these beings. Alhamdi'lah James of the Nimatullahi Sufi Order Love becomes perfect only when it transcends itself -- Becoming One with its object; Producing Unity of Being. Hakim Jami (1414-1492) From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 11 06:00:22 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29223; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 01:20:46 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA20320; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 01:00:24 -0500 Received: from inside.cruzio.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id BAA20315; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 01:00:22 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 01:00:22 -0500 Received: from pine196.cruzio.com by inside.cruzio.com id aa15689; 10 Jan 96 21:56 PST X-Sender: dances@mail.cruzio.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: dances Subject: Recurrance (an expanding ripple into the pond of time) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Ya Haqq Afew posts back there was mentioned reincarnation.I had mentioned recurrance as an alternative approach. Here is a nice summation of etrnal recurrance in relation to P.D. Ouspenskii a disciple of G.I. Gurdjieff. james > >THE THEORY OF ETERNAL RETURN > >A central belief of Ouspensky is the doctrine known variously as eternal >return or recurrence. >Surprisingly, in spite of the relative obscurity of this idea the theory >has nevertheless had adherents >throughout the ages and influenced many notable thinkers. The most recent >well known champion >of the theory was James Joyce whose novel , 'Finnegans Wake', is based >wholly on the idea. As a >philosophical tenant we generally associate the name of Nietzsche with >this view, and in spite of >the relatively lesser impact this idea has had upon many of his academic >commentators, within the >corpus of Nietzsche's writings it has been recognized as central by >certain influential reviewers.12 >In Western thought the doctrine is associated by reference to Pythagorus >through the commentaries >of Eudemus of Rhodes, by Archytas of Tarentum, perhaps Plotinus, and the >sixth-centurian >Neoplatonist, Simplicius. With its emphasis on eschatology modern >Christianity never supported >the doctrine, although Ouspensky cites several passages within the Gospels >which, in his opinion, >indicate that Christ himself was conversant with the notion of repetition, >and he offers a passage in >Origen's 'On First Principles' as an indication of early Christianity's >attempt to discredit the idea. >13 Recurrence as a cosmogonical hypothesis was never considered tenable, >although as a moral >foundation it possesses a certain appeal. That is, if all actions are >repeated eternally the imperative >to maximize one's condition might be heightened. Still, with few >exceptions this too was found >lacking as a foundation of any deontic theory, and today the average man >would be surprised to >encounter the idea. Of course for Ouspensky recurrence was neither a >physical nor a moral theory >but was, instead, a metaphysical ground flowing from his metageometrical >conception of the form >of the world. > >Looking back on our speculative discussion regarding the four dimensional >representation of our >life we recall that any four dimensional figure necessarily encompasses >the entire life of a thing and >is not just a series of discrete moments hung together by memory. To >understand the relation of the >theory of recurrence to Ouspensky's so called "new model" let us imagine a >specific geometrical >form in its relation to our life. We start with the line making up the >life of a man. One point, birth, >begins in the year 1900 while the line ends with the death of the subject >in, say, 1970. The entire >figure of the complete life of the man constitutes a four dimensional >form. Now, let us curve the >line into an angle of 360 degrees. Here, the end of the line connects to >the beginning. Death ends in >birth. A man is born in 1900, lives his life, dies in 1970 and is reborn >again in 1900 encountering >the exact same circumstances of his previous existence. Consciousness >limited to the three >dimensional phenomenal form does not recognize the endlessness of the loop >of existence, but only >the static moment. A man understands his birth but never comprehends what >could come "before" >nor, with any real knowledge, does he understand what awaits "after" death >even though, >depending upon his life circumstances, there exist numerous "religious" >expositions regarding the >supposed afterlife which he might embrace with varying degrees of confidence.. > >Embracing the fixity of recurrence would seemingly negate any possibility >of real change or >evolution in the state of an individual man for if one is destined to >relive one's life over in all >aspects can anyone hope to escape the hand he or she is dealt? This is an >open question but one >Ouspensky attempts to address with the doctrine of possibilities. That is, >at every moment in time >various possibilities of action present themselves, at least potentially. >As we move through time a >set course unfolds consisting in the actualization of certain >possibilities. Certainly, as long as we >remain unconscious to the several possibilities inherent within each >moment we are unwittingly >carried along within our particular time. If alternate life circumstances >are even possible it can only >occur after the attainment of a level of consciousness which allows an >individual to recognize the >potential for change inherent within each moment of one's life. For >Ouspensky, man as he >currently exists is tied to a particular line and has absolutely no >possibility of changing his >condition, however it is the purpose of the esoteric idea to show a way >out of our current >unproductive cycle of recurrence. 14 > From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 11 13:39:10 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02093; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 09:21:05 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA19172; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 08:51:36 -0500 Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id IAA19166; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 08:51:34 -0500 Received: from mucc.mahidol.ac.th by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA12860; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 08:46:10 -0500 Received: (from fribk@localhost) by mucc.mahidol.ac.th (8.7.3/8.7.3) id UAA21549; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 20:39:11 +0700 (GMT) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 20:39:10 +0700 (GMT) From: Iljas Baker - SH To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Introduction Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. As a new member I would like to introduce myself. I converted to Islam just over 20 years ago. I am interested in the inner dimension of Islam and in living this in the context of a late twentieth century secular society-- otherwise it is an illusion. How to keep our heart open in such a society is a question which challenges me. Our hejira now must surely be an inner one for there is no better place out there to go to. As Rumi says: "Each and every part of the world is a snare for the fool and a means of deliverance for the wise." He also said: "Whatever purifies you is the correct path--I will not try to define it." Yes, there is great hope in my heart still! I look forward to hearing your stories. Regards, Ilyas From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 11 14:28:18 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04224; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 10:09:07 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA22993; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 09:27:11 -0500 Received: from fastmail.worldweb.net by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id JAA22973; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 09:27:08 -0500 Received: from dns.worldweb.net (dns.worldweb.net [204.117.218.2]) by fastmail.worldweb.net (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id JAA07836 for ; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 09:30:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from JIM ([204.117.218.178]) by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 10:40:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19960111142818.002e8434@worldweb.net> X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 09:28:18 -0500 To: tariqas@facteur.std.com, tariqas@facteur.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Recurrance (an expanding ripple into the pond of time) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: At 01:00 AM 1/11/96 -0500, dances wrote: >Ya Haqq > >Afew posts back there was mentioned reincarnation.I had mentioned >recurrance as an alternative approach. Here is a nice summation of etrnal >recurrance in relation to P.D. Ouspenskii a disciple of G.I. Gurdjieff. > >james > > >> Ouspensky articulates a terrifying vision here. Caught on this treadmill we become industrial puppets, playthings for a distant, separate and unreachable God. Let's hope that the Sufi view, with God within us and accessible holds true. Warm regards, Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Thu Jan 11 15:47:10 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01309; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 11:34:51 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA03317; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 10:47:13 -0500 Received: from inside.cruzio.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id KAA03298; Thu, 11 Jan 1996 10:47:10 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 10:47:10 -0500 Received: from pine196.cruzio.com by inside.cruzio.com id aa18105; 11 Jan 96 7:43 PST X-Sender: dances@mail.cruzio.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: dances Subject: Re: Recurrance (an expanding ripple into the pond of time) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: This message I posted to alt.consciouness.4th-way for those that talk of gurdjieff system as a shock... maybe it be good shock for you too :) sometimes talk is good for reflection...other times we must be aware of our physical sensations...that is the one thing I greatly admire Gurdjieff system. unfortunately I am aware of what I mention down below in this article...My awareness is habitual...I am stuck with this awareness. Perhaps you also see...you do not have head yet all those near to you you see do have heads and the greastest mystery is to see that they are all of them exactly like you they have no heads such as you do not.:) This is my condition when Sufism knocked at my door. you reading this... for a minute think you can do...that you are awake...that you feel the seat on your ass...you sense all of your aches...that you are irritable OR whatever fleeting negative emotions are going on WHY WHY???? The systems instuctions can act as a FORCE not allowing you increase of awareness if there is any of your habitul negativity is settled on these ,possibily , new ideas. WHERE IS YOUR HEAD..WHERE IS YOUR HEAD..WHERE IS YOUR HEAD..WHERE IS YOUR HEAD IF YOU COULD SEE THAT YOU ARE HEADLESS ...you would see that everything in front of you is your head...DON'T TRY TO FIGURE...SENSE IT...SLOW DOWN ...SLOW DOWN USE YOUR PERIPHIAL VISION MORE , IT WILL HELP STOP THOUGHTS. look at the person near you or cross the street...do you not see that they are different from you? They ...all of them...have head... you do NOT!...all of them die...you do not die...They might pass out of your circle of recurrance that is all....They FOR THEMSELVES ARE THE SAME AS YOU...each person the same ...NO HEAD...BUT you maybe easier to realize...keeping actual physical awareness may help in transforming hydrogens... but slyman has secret for source of higher hydrogens accessible to us here at the bottom of this deep dark gravity well. if this confuse...you not aware...not awake to see you alone have no head...How can you walk a mile in other's shoes w/o actually being in your own shoes. You may say to reflect these words from entering you...what authority do I have? Good question! But don't reflect. I do not have head AND "I" know it FIAT LUX There is no god but god and Mohammed is his prophet. Should you catch but a glimpse of Him, you'd lose your mind, and should you see Him fully, you'd lose your very being. Shibli From tariqas-approval@facteur.std.com Fri Jan 12 11:31:21 1996 Received: from europe.std.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03605; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 07:34:50 -0500 Received: by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id GAA02347; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 06:35:43 -0500 Received: from soho.ios.com by europe.std.com (8.6.12/Spike-8-1.0) id GAA02333; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 06:35:40 -0500 Received: from LOCALNAME (ppp-16.ts-2.nyc.idt.net [199.248.149.176]) by soho.ios.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) with SMTP id GAA12461 for ; Fri, 12 Jan 1996 06:31:21 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 06:31:21 -0500 Message-Id: <199601121131.GAA12461@soho.ios.com> X-Sender: kaleema@198.4.75.47 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@facteur.std.com From: "K.Ahmad" Subject: Introduction Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. Greetings To All, When I first saw the word tariqas for a discussion group, I thought to myself what a great title. It brings to mind different paths, ways and choices, all towards one goal. The Allmighty has given us the option, we can burn in the fire or have the fire burn within us. We all have inborn capabilities and possibilities which we should not deny. Often we feel desires, to which there is no end. When they are not fullfilled we feel melancholy, we forget if we control our desires we control our pain. Another human trait is to think of tomorrow and linger on yesterday, we forget that yesterday becomes the never alterable and tomorrow is the mirror of today. Iqbal puts it this way: O Heart! How long will you follow The foolish Moth's game? And encompassing the Candle, by Self-negligence, Worship the same? Now open your Eyes Upon yourself, And burn yourself in Your own flame: For 'tis no use jumping into Another's fleeting Flame! ____________________________________ You always ran to his lane O Heart! O Heart!! And when you go To your Beloved, Alone I remain, O Heart! O Heart!! Every moment you create New desires and new Aims Hence you give me noyhing But Disapointment and inner pain, O Heart! O Heart!! ____________________________________ A wise old man gave me This piece of Advice "Make much of your Present Time For every "To-day" of yours Is a Message from "To-morrow"! I look forward to encountering all of your "tariqas". All The Best Kaleem