Bram says: Ok, if we are all silent now... the floor is Wolvie's Wolverine says: Okay, first of all, let me remind everyone that I am supposed to be a professional Wolverine says: 3D animation artist. Wolverine says: I work at Ball Systems making military simulators Wolverine says: despite my artistic background, I still know a great deal about 3D Wolverine says: and I will be of some use when we convert/ if we convert to 3D Wolverine says: so, when you all start coding, I have some info for you that will save time and help the speed of things Wolverine says: but, I am not here to talk about technical stuff, so I will leave that issue till later. Wolverine says: I am here to talk about the look and feel of the game Wolverine says: right now, we are all in a room, with stairs going down, right? Bram nods solemnly. Wolverine says: well, there is a weird thing I have noticed: Wolverine says: when I move north, I remain the same size, like I was flying up or something Wolverine says: I know that these polygons can be scaled, so why not scale our objects? Bram nods solemnly. Wolverine says: we could at least emulate perspective. Jacques AcKs! Bram says: You move north, but the camera moves north as well! Wolverine says: alse, we seem to have a size inconsistency Wolverine says: but the background doesn't seem to! Jacques says: are you going to talk about real 3d or fake 3d?? Wolverine says: the idea here is to make things appear more realistic Wolverine says: I am going to talk about some artistic standards, regardless of whether it is 3D or not Jacques nods solemnly. Wolverine says: we need to be able to say that all characters should be X feet tall, or X units or whatever Wolverine says: and the shorter need to be shorter, etc Wing says: it's not possible to scale things today, or rather it must be done by the mud... Wolverine says: I realize that this game is limited, but we are not limited in our drawings Bram says: May I interrupt? Wolverine nods solemnly. Bram says: About scaling.... Wolverine says: go ahead Bram says: If you arenot talking TRUE 3d, and are satisfied... Bram says: ...with scaling objects.... the implementation is trivial... Bram says: as it is now.... Wolverine says: I don't have a concern with it. I am bapable of either art form Bram says: We have two dimensions. Wolverine says: capable Bram says: But NOT screen coord dimensions... Wolverine says: okay, I see that. Bram says: We have: depth and x-pos. Bram says: Now , my intention was: Bram says: With increasing depth.... objects should be downscaled. Bram says: It's even in the code of the current client. Wolverine says: sounds like what I was describing Bram says: however: Bram says: It was bugged, and I commented it out. Wolverine says: then fix it Pilf snickers. Bram says: But the scaling you mentioned does not even require a protocol change Wolverine says: I knew that. If I can scale the size of the graphic window, then Wolverine says: it makes sense that the objects are also being scaled Wolverine says: this is all very clear. Wolverine says: next point/ Wolverine says: look and feel: Wolverine says: we have a post office, right? Bram nods solemnly. Wolverine says: when was the last time anyone got mail? Jacques snickers. Bram says: mail or fax? Pilf says: It's cumbersome. Wolverine says: Everyone read my post about the apartment idea, right? Jacques nods solemnly. Bram nods solemnly. Wing nods solemnly. Wolverine says: good. Bram says: it is great! Pilf's head shakes no. Jacques says: interesting conceopt :-) Pilf says: On the Bboard ? Wolverine says: well, I will mail it to whoever hasn't read it. Bram says: it's ftp-able Pilf says: Oh, ok. pub on lysator ? Bram says: .pub/lpmud/bsx/list Wolverine says: anyway, I think that if we can give the players in the game a sense of belonging, we should be able to keep them here. Pilf nods solemnly. Pilf says: Ok. Wolverine says: shhh! Wolverine says: the thing is that most MUDs don't give you a place to hang your hat Wolverine says: from the beginning. Wolverine says: but we do. Wolverine says: I know about mushes and all, so don't bring it up. Wolverine says: but, beyond that Wolverine says: we can eliminate the need to describe a certain area (other than the description of an exit) because we can DRAW it. Wolverine says: so, generally, our game has some strengths as I have mentioned. Wolverine says: but it lacks a certain linkage to it all. Wolverine says: refer to my comment on the idea of "to your left is a volcano" Wolverine says: in my letter Wolverine says: the last thing I have to say is that I really need help with BSX DRAW Wolverine says: because I will be able to pump out major artwork in minor time. Wolverine says: I have about 35 Inspirational sketches that are over a year old for this game Bram says: but? Wolverine says: I offer to do any and all requests for artwork. Wolverine says: But I can't get the BSX draw to work. Wolverine says: who wrote the draw program? Pilf says: Um didnt Voyager or TheCaptain develop it ? Jacques says: not me. Bram says: VOyager Pilf nods solemnly. Bram says: now you mention it Jacques says: it's ten times better than it used to be! Wolverine says: well, would anyone tell me his address? Bram blushes. Jacques grins evilly. Bram says: just finger him Pilf says: Boob and I helped him fix a few things ... but personally I think it's kinda nice. Bram says: szloh@jupiter.cse.utoledo.edu Wolverine says: other than a few bug fixes that I wanted to mention, that is all I have to say. Bram says: I will bring it up at our meeting Bram says: thankU for your input Wolverine says: the bugs are: Bart simpson is annoyingly defective. Wolverine says: he occasionally won't load. Bram frowns. Bram says: Probably disk space problems Jacques says: BIAB Wolverine says: the Pluto quest has a problem with the corner room Jacques drops transmogrifier. Jacques left the realms of bsx, and now has to deal with the harsh cold world outside. Bram says: what does BIAB stand for? Wolverine says: the other bug is that the amiga client needs work. Pilf shrugs helplessly. Bram jokes: the other bug IS the amigaclient Wolverine says: tell ferry when he gets here that I need to talk to him. Bram grins evilly. Pilf snickers. Bram nods solemnly. Wolverine says: cute, bram. Bram says: I will Pilf says: It's true. Pilf smiles at Bram. Wolverine says: great. I'm don. Wolverine says: done. Pilf says: May I say something ? Pilf chuckles politely. Wolverine says: sure. Pilf says: Guess I just did... Wing agreed with Pilf. Bram says: You get the floor Pilf says: I don't think removing the room descrips is an option. Pilf's head shakes no. Pilf says: You severly limit who can login and quest. Wing agrees with Pilf. Pilf says: Not *EVERYBODY* is always running graphics I/F. Pilf says: Maybe adding a BRIEF mode to the mud. Pilf says: Not removing it entirely. Bram says: That's exactly what the alpha client does: Bram says: filters out all @ commands at CLIENT side Pilf says: Now, I know the standard arg of "But this is a graphical mud"! Bram says: no need to do it at SERVER side Pilf nods solemnly. Pilf says: Whatever. Pilf says: BUT, having that attitude so far really hasn't helped this place to take off. Pilf says: Anyway ... Pilf says: I think is we had some SUPER quest that people could really get involved Pilf says: with via telnet and serial lines, it would get them hooked. Pilf says: THEN if they want to enjoy the mud in it's intended forum, let Pilf says: them fight over workstation. Bram says: text-only-quest? Pilf's head shakes no. Pilf's head shakes no. Pilf says: No no ... but certainly not a quest that is GRAPHIS only. Bram says: there is only 1 graphics only quest I think... Bram says: that's Charon Bram says: I mean: venus Pilf says: To tell you the truth it was your quest that hooked me Bram. Bram says: which one? Bram says: dont tell me the LUD Pilf says: And that was using ONLY telnet to an xterm. Pilf smiles happily. Pilf nods solemnly. Pilf says: Yup, LUD. Pilf giggles inanely. Bram says: Ah... that one Pilf ruffles Brams hair playfully. Bram says: It was kinda innovative aye? Pilf says: An idea b4 it's time. Pilf grins evilly. Pilf says: It wasn't until Boob and I stareted getting on and raising Freak slowly shimmers into sight. Pilf says: hell with each others images that we started grapically interfacing Pilf says: with BSX. Pilf smiles happily. Freak bows gracefully. Freak bows to Bram. Bram smiles happily. Pilf says: That's all I wanted to point out ... that we shouldn't trash Pilf says: the standard character cell interface. Jacques suddenly appears right before your eyes. Pilf drop the floor on Bram's big toe. Freak says: Hello Jacques Pilf says: Ooopps. Sorry. Pilf smiles at Bram. Bram looks at his swollen toe Wing says: I must add that it's not always you know what something someone has drawn is, or is named in english Pilf snickers. Pilf nods solemnly. Wing says: therefore descriptions are necessary Pilf says: Fogot to mention that. Freak says: oh Pilf nods solemnly. Freak says: maybe muddraw should include a description query Pilf says: BUT, there are somethings that are conveyed in a graphics only ENV. Pilf says: Like the hidden door by the waterfall downstairs. Pilf smiles happily. Freak says: and the light on venus Pilf nods solemnly. Bram says: I aggree.... Pilf says: Yup, I forgot that one. Bram says: It's kinda cool to have quests that can only be done in grpahics muds Freak says: very cool Pilf says: So, those are the `Graphics only quests', that can real in the people Pilf says: using character cell devices. Pilf snickers. Bram says: it kinda says: look at this.... your ordinary text mud wont be able to cope with this kinda stuff! Pilf says: Aggreed. Bram says: it's suppoosed to be a step beyond Pilf nods solemnly. Freak says: oooh Bram says: ...the standard way. Freak says: when do I get to see it? Bram says: see what? Freak says: are there step by step plans for the implementaion of this graphic stufff, pilf? Pilf says: What graphics stuff ? Freak says: sorry I came in late Pilf snickers. Pilf says: That's ok. Pilf ruffles Freaks hair playfully. Bram says: Never mind, but what DID ya mean, Freak? Freak says: I must be confused, I thought you were talking about something revolutionary Bram says: like? Pilf says: BSX! Pilf throws his head back and cackles with glee! Bram says: tacktile feed back? Bram says: head mounted displays? Pilf chuckles politely. Wolverine says: Gee, sounds like work at Ball Systems. Freak says: like something that would reallly draw in the users Freak says: ouch! Wolverine says: guys, ball systems is cutting edge with this kind of stuff. Freak says: no pun intended Bram says: Nah... dont need that stuff.... Wolverine says: I have played with these toys at work. Bram says: You want to simulate sex with tacktile sensors or something? Freak says: yeah Bram says: like having 3 datagloves? Pilf says: Wolverine was the one with the graphics ideas Freak. Freak grins evilly. Wolverine says: nah, just a battle thin Wolverine says: thing. Sam shouts: Someone can help me on Caci ???? Bram says: I have never been on caci Freak says: its neato Bram Wolverine says: where is caci? Bram says: What is it? Whose is it? Freak says: its Thecaptains Bram says: Does it have service from the cabs? Wolverine says: great, he's not here. Pilf says: ~thecaptain/quest/cacicity Freak says: you really oughta check it out Freak says: you start on neptune Bram says: Ah Bram says: BRB, RL. Freak says: hmm Wolverine says: just for the log, I sure would like it if someone made a non-programmer's guide to writing code for BSX. Wing smiles happily. Freak says: why? Wolverine says: then you could all enjoy my creativity. Pilf chuckles politely. Freak says: you are not a programmer? Wolverine says: I also am very new to programming in C Wing says: well you need to become a programmer to program bsx-mud... Pilf says: Full of ourselves this A.M. are we Wolvie ? Pilf chuckles politely. Wolverine says: yep, but it would be nice to get some clues. Freak giggles inanely. Wing says: that's the simple hard cold truth... Freak says: I never heard of lpc unitl BSX came along Wolverine says: Well, I forgot to wake up my maturity. Pilf hands Wolverine a bottle of Geritol. Pilf says: There, chug that. Pilf giggles inanely. Wolverine says: I have had y cheerios already. say anyway, are you finished Pilf? Wing says: anyway, are you finished Pilf? Arduin suddenly appears right before your eyes. Pilf says: I said I was. Pilf smiles at you. Arduin bows gracefully. Bram says: This is Arduin Bram says: He wants in :-) Freak says: for the record I would like to see a reversible graphic protocol for characters when they micro_e & micro_w Bram says: In our macabre cultlike group that is Freak says: hi Arduin! Freak says: welcome! Arduin says: hi Arduin smiles happily. Wolverine says: greetings. Wing says: greetings Pilf bows to Arduin. Wolverine 's razor goes buzzzzzzzzz Arduin giggles inanely. Freak says: like when a character changes direction, their graphic should too Bram nods solemnly. Wolverine says: I like that idea. Bram says: Thath would require drawing all chars 4 times Wing thinks he accidently promised to code that... Freak says: we could just reverse the graphic Bram says: And would clutter up comm. lines 4 times as much Wolverine promises to do the graphics for it Freak says: it would? Bram pokes Wolverine in the ribs. Jacques says: so I take it people think BSX should stick with 2D ? Freak says: clutter 4 times? Bram says: You dont even have bsxdraw Bram grins evilly. Wolverine says: well, I had better real soon if you want the graphics done! Jacques says: because many of the things people are talking about are 2d specific... Freak says: no i mean like just flip the already existing graphic Freak says: yeah you are right Jacques Wolverine says: well, I gotta go to school now. bye. Jacques says: one of the cool things about true 3d... Freak says: have you ever played the version of tank for xwindows? Wing says: have we really discussed that issue...I would go for 2d with 3d effects... Freak says: bye wolverine Wolverine waves. Bram waves. Jacques says: is that you get all these tings for free... Wolverine left the realms of bsx, and now has to deal with the harsh cold world outside. Wing says: drawing in true 3d is not a task I would like... Bram says: I know Bram says: it's all world coords Bram says: makes it so much easier for the server Jacques says: you get real perspective 3 point :-) Bram says: put puts strain on the client Wing can on the other hand not draw... Jacques says: exactly :-) Freak says: maybe the client is where the strain should be Jacques nods solemnly. Bram says: maybe not Freak says: ? Jacques says: that is what I think. Jacques says: strain should be on client. Bram says: My 8088/8MHz has difficulties doing simple polygons... without the 2d projection Bram says: And even worse: Bram says: what about amigas? Bram grins evilly. Jacques says: my system has clients rendering at their ability. Pilf doubles over and pukes. Jacques says: well...that is a problem... Jacques says: we have to decide what level of machines to support. Freak says: a 8088/8mhz was meant for word processing Jacques says: have you heard of REND386 ? Bram nods solemnly. Bram says: fast poly drawer Jacques says: it is a 3d graphics library for 386 machines. Bram says: You probably mean: for 386+387 machines Jacques says: I intend to use it when *somebody* writes a client for my mud for PCs Jacques says: well, it may use integer arith...I dont remember Jacques says: I already wrote clients for Xwindows and GL Freak says: jacques do you run a graphic mud? acques smiles happily. Jacques says: it is not open yet...but very close now :-) Freak says: what is the address? Jacques says: 3d, all the way. Freak says: when will it be open? Jacques says: don't know for sure...depends how much times I get to spend on it.... Freak says: this is serious compitition Bram Bram smiles happily. Jacques says: also, I ahve been saying that for so long..ppl wont believe me anymore :-) Freak wipes the sweat from his brow Freak says: whew Jacques says: I want to help BSX with what I have leanred so far. Freak says: man you gotta finish it Freak says: ok great! Jacques says: you should see my GL client.... Jacques says: shading, light sources...solid objects.. ;-) Freak says: you owe much to BSX for your initiative to begin a graphic mud Arduin says: what is GL? Jacques says: the X-windows one is just wireframe right now. Wing says: but how hard is it to draw? Jacques says: GL is a graphics language started by SGI, now supported by many companies. Arduin nods solemnly. Jacques says: right now, it is very difficult to create geometries. Jacques says: because I haven't made the equivalent of bsxdraw yet. Bram says: no need: there is an ftp site with tons of 3d objects Freak says: hm Wing says: they got a 3d picture of me? Bram says: I use it for my raytracer Jacques says: well, these objects need to be relatively simple right now... Jacques says: my protocol is very efficient...but really complex objects will kill any client... Jacques says: I try to stay around 10 frames per second for an average scene... Jacques says: which means there can only be a few hundred polys on the screen. Freak says: gee! Peugh slowly shimmers into sight. Freak says: hi peugh! Peugh says: Howdie. Jacques says: I am limited by rendering speed :-) Bram shouts: 17:00 GMT! Bram shouts: make that 16:00 Wing says: read /log/meeting for an update Freak says: its time! Bram says: Ok.... Bram says: How about some sort of agenda? Bram says: To go through each issue one by a time? emote wants to speak about the protocol. Wing wants to speak about the protocol. Bram says: Let's divide the subjects: Bram says: All issues are either regenesis or BSX related Bram says: I would like to address them both Bram says: The BSX subjects can be subdivided into protocol changes / 3d extentions / others Bram says: I propose we tackle the Regenesis issues first. Bram says: would that be ok? Arduin nods solemnly. Freak nods solemnly. Peugh nods solemnly. Wing nods solemnly. Bram says: In the mailing list I have seen some very interesting ideas. Bram says: One of the most interesting suggestions was the better guidance of newbies. Boob slowly shimmers into sight. Bram says: It was about a better logon system. Arduin says: I think that is a good thing... Bram says: One that asks all kinda questions, so every user, even with IQ s below 50 could use it Boob kicks Pilf. Freak uses his magical goodness to bring peace to this place. Bram says: However... Peugh uses his magical evilness to set everyone aflame Freak says: what kinds of questions? Bram says: The implementation gives me some problems with LPs Bram says: lemme check my files... Bram says: it's about a mailing from wolverine. Bram says: lemme show you a sample log on session Bram says: Example: Bram says: Welcome to Regenesis! Bram says: by Bram Stolk, etc. Bram says: please enter your character's name at the prompt. If you do not Bram says: have Bram says: a character, enter in a name for a new character and answer the Bram says: questions that follow. Bram says: Name: Bram says: Wolverine is the name of a new player. Bram says: Welcome, Wolverine! Bram says: Please tell us what machine you are using: Bram says: : Bram says: The NeXT is not a computer we support on the Regenesis site. Bram says: Do you have access to any other workstations? Bram says: : Bram says: Here is the list of available operating systems that we support: Bram says: 1. Xwindows11 Bram says: 2. Sparc Bram says: ....and so on.... Bram says: Enter in which machine you have access to, or type 'n' for none. Bram says: : Bram says: Well, Wolverine, you still have a few options. Do you have a Bram says: personal Computer? Bram says: : Bram says: Please enter which machine you have: Bram says: 1. Amiga WB 1.3 Bram says: 2. Amiga WB 2.0 Bram says: 3. Amiga AGA (A1200, A4000) Bram says: 4. IBM with CGA graphics Bram says: 5. IBM with Windows Bram says: 6. Macintosh Bram says: 7. other Bram says: : <1> Bram says: The Amiga is a fine machine, Wolverine. Fortunately, we support it Bram says: as a front end for the Regenesis game. [goto *] Bram says: :<4> Bram says: The IBM is a widely used computer, so naturally, we support it as a Bram says: front end for the Regenesis game. [goto *] Bram says: and so on... Bram says: so basically: Bram says: what it does: it leads the player by the hand... Bram says: even tells him/her to use ftp if it has to. Freak says: ooh I like it! Mommy! Bram says: the idea behind this: Bram says: Regenesis could be immensly more accessable Bram says: I would like such an improvement of accessability Peugh says: But, w Bram says: Chances are, there are a lot of potential users who simply give up because of difficulties. Arduin says: like my friends... Bram says: Wing has allready achieved a large improvement of accessability Wing smiles happily. Bram says: If it werent for me, BSX would now hav e been accessable for people without client Bram blushes. Bram says: So I would like further improvements, as outlined by wolverine. Bram says: Now my problem is: Bram says: LPMUD sucks when it comes to asking questions from a user. Bram says: the cause of this is: Bram says: You cant sequentially ask a couple of questions. Bram says: You gotta nest them... each in their own sub procedure. Bram says: So about the implementation of this system... I would nt know how... Peugh says: Hmmm. Wing says: I could make a data-driven thingy to make such programming easy Arduin says: i think they have managed to do something like that in Batmud... an item... Bram says: is batmud LP? Arduin says: yes Peugh says: How about we create a room, where there is someone like Bart to administer the questions. Wing says: err easier Bram says: No... Bram says: that would nt do... Arduin says: there is a figurine playres can configure... make a moster... aggr, bar way etc. Bram says: if we want REALLY novice users to be able to use it ... Bram says: we need a simple DIRECT Q/A system. Bram says: Basicaly, using BSX is 1 big puzzle.... Bram says: But everyone can solve it, if the puzzle is solved piece by piiece... Bram says: with a Q/A system you can achieve this. Bram says: This way, you will NOT have to bother X11 players with things like fossil drivers for PCs Wing agrees with Bram. Bram says: You only bring up an issue, when it is appropriate, as in Wolv's example. Bram says: About wolv's example: Arduin says: part of that can be achieved with bigger help file i think Bram says: This mesg, as all other messages from the mailing group can be read in the ftp dirs of lysator. Peugh says: Or a more verbose help file. Bram says: help files are NOT interactive Bram says: a Q/A system IS Arduin says: i know Freak says: how about a Q/A robot NPC Peugh says: How many questions do you want to ask? Arduin says: but i couldnt find the things even in THEM Bram says: newbies hate 10Kbyte help files. Wing says: well I could do some work on it if one else wants to Bram says: problem with robot: Bram says: You would first have to tell the newby how to use the robot. Bram says: This is wrong... Bram says: When using a direct Q/A NOTHING could possibly go wrong. Pilf says: As opposed to telling them to use ftp ? Bram says: no... Peugh says: Hmm, well we should give the Newbie some form of intelegence here. Bram says: as opposed to telnetting to lyastor Bram says: about this newbie: Peugh says: Most of the time, they can work out some bits for themselves. Bram says: All that is required from him/her is to telnet to lysator.... Peugh says: Like operating the robot? Bram says: EVERYTHING from then on is handled by an intelligent system Bram says: like Wings hack: Bram says: Regenesis can actualy tell wether U R using a client, and if so, which one. Freak says: which would then lead to what type of machine you are using Peugh says: IF you are using a client. Pilf nods solemnly. Freak says: and thus whether or not you can handle 256 colors Pilf's head shakes no. Pilf says: No, not necessarily. Pilf says: That's server dependant, not machine. Peugh says: No, there should be some client Peugh says: Oops. Bram says: The strength of Wolverines system is that you only bring up issues when needed, a help file cannot do this... And since I am pretty sure lotsa potetntial users give up, I would like to give it a try. Pilf says: Well, you are GOD here ..... who are we to stop you. Pilf smiles at Bram. Bram says: The reason I didnt try a 1st implementation already is LPCs: input_to Freak says: Bram needs help writing all this stuff in good time Bram says: I was thinking about avoiding this by writing seperate daemon... Wing smiles happily. Peugh says: Tha Bram says: This one would have to talk to the user before the LPMUD driver gets a chance to chat. Wing says: I don't think it's necessary Bram says: If it can be done in the mudlib, it would be fine as well. Wing says: writing a lpc-daemon that handles some help-text file-format wouldn't be too hard Wing says: acctually I think it would be easier than writing a daemon in another language Bram says: Well, if you want to give it a try... by all means Bram says: Did ya read the mailmesg we are refering to? Wing nods solemnly. Freak leaves home. Bram says: As long as we are discussing accessability... does anyone have any idaes on additional meassures to improve it? Emperor Peugh is a Wisconsonite at heart (MetaRoyalty) wraps their cloak around them several times, looking like an idiot, and with a flash of light they are gone. Peugh suddenly disappears right before your eyes. Peugh Tells All Scheppers: Sorry, have to leave now. BIG Math test. Bram says: Ok, the next item: Bram says: In order to boost regenesis, the game should have some addictive qualities. Bram says: it seems that many people lose interest after a first visit. Arduin says: yes... i can speak from experience Bram nods solemnly. Bram says: Most people tend to blame this on the lack of combat Arduin says: when i try to do something, it usually says What? Arduin says: i think as coders you havent though enough of the things players will try to do Pilf says: Combat is an attractive aspect to some muds. Bram says: Hmm, the frequent 'what?' is common to all muds.... Wing says: I think it's a takeoff-limit, a mud has to be of a certain size (or maybe with a certain numbers of players online) to interest more... Arduin says: giving nice hints would be nice instead of What? Bram says: yet... a lot of txt muds seem to be highly addictive Wing says: noone wants to play a sud.... Bram nods solemnly. Bram says: very true Pilf says: sud ? Bram says: single user Pilf says: Ahhh . sinlge. Wing says: but regenesis is very small, and it takes much more time to create something here Pilf bangs his head on the floor. Pilf says: Perhaps because it's LPC/LP mud ? Bram says: Well, what do you think it is? Lack of size or lack of players? Pilf says: Anyone ever monkey with a Diku ? Bram says: no Wing says: a text-based mud could probably reach its takeoff-limit with only one or a couple of persons coding Pilf says: You should check out a Diku for the experience Bram. Boob says: I still think it would be easier to get a large mud by adapting the graphical interface to an existing large system Pilf says: Just for a frame of reference. Wing says: so I think only by making lots of new nifty things we would become something Pilf nods solemnly. Pilf says: I aggree with Boob. Wing says: I don't think bsxmud "failure" is becase it lacks a combat system or some other fundamental error Bram says: an existing mud? Pilf says: That way we can conentrate on creating graphical interfaces Boob says: something with well defined rooms and quests and objects Pilf says: instead of the acutal mud code. Bram says: Well, a MUSH and a MUCK are adding the BSX protocol to their system as we speak. Pilf says: FOR NOW. Boob says: didn't you write an lp mud, bram? Bram says: write? KoBra is probably 100 Meg of LPC... let's say I founded it. Wing says: I don't think it's possible to do that Boob, I think you want to make some things different if you make a graphical mud... Wing says: like on a text-mud you normally have a lot of rooms with almost nothing in them Boob says: you make it too different and you lose die hard mudders Bram says: We could ask ourselves the question: what does this existing mud have that we lack? Wing says: on a graphical mud it's so hard to draw a room so you want to pack a lot of thingies in it Pilf says: Empty rooms, that we can remove. Pilf smiles happily. Bram says: I have 8 on venus Bram says: empty rooms that is Pilf nods solemnly. Boob says: I think BSX is just a very unfamiliar interface Pilf nods solemnly. Bram says: all consisting of just 2 polies Wing personally don't care for existing die hard mudders... Bram says: let's get back to this combat for a moment..... Bram says: I often get complaints about players like: Pilf says: BUT die hard mudders are what make a mud. Boob says: but those are the people who come back over and over Bram says: my exp wont rise.... where do I get armour/weapons Boob says: if you ALWAYS had a dozen people on, more newbies would stay Arduin says: i dont miss combat that much, i play other mud if i want that... Pilf nods solemnly. Wing says: personally I loved BSX-mud because I didn't have to do any boring fighting... Arduin says: here i would like to see QUESTS Bram says: Thats all we have... Pilf nods solemnly. Bram says: problem is: Arduin says: which use the graphics... Pilf says: BUT that's ALL we have. Wing says: I think there is enough players out there who are like me, and therefore do not play normal muds... Bram says: a quest is not addictive most of the time... Pilf says: One or two combats involved in a quest ... Boob says: I think more impressive graphics might also help draw people in .. Pilf says: That's what Wolverine was speaking of. Boob says: perhaps slightly more interactive, but not necessarily overboard Bram says: Do any of you guys ever played the PC game Dune2? Boob's head shakes no. Bram says: now THAT game has addictive qualities.... Someone's head shakes no. Pilf says: Ooops. Pilf's head shakes no. Bram says: That's mostly because you are giving everything you have to progress... Wing says: I love sierra-on-line games...that's my ideal for a bsx-mud Arduin says: hmm, roommate needs the phone... brb Wing says: apart from the lousy parser... Pilf says: Explain Bram. Bram says: It becomes an obsession to reach that next level. Arduin is suddenly frozen in time! Bram says: You see a challenge, and you wanna meet it. Pilf says: Like ? Bram says: with levels attached to quests... thinks are different. Pilf nods solemnly. Pilf says: I see. Bram says: You know that sometime you will solve the next, and thus in the end make it lvl 21 Bram says: there is no tention in ther Boob says: perhaps we just need to more explicitly tell newbies which quests to do and the goals Bram says: The main problem: Bram says: with combat you can LOOSE levels Pilf chuckles politely. Bram says: with quests U cant Pilf says: ONLY if you implement it that way. Bram says: what way? Pilf says: That you loose a level with combat. Pilf says: Look, I'm not saying that we NEED combat .... Bram says: It adds an element of risk to it when ya do that Pilf says: I'm saying that we need SOME way to hook these people. Bram says: with our quests... there is NO risk whatsoever... Pilf nods solemnly. Pilf says: Right. Pilf says: So what's the challenge ? Pilf smiles happily. Bram says: no risk means no chalenge Wing says: well we can make the quests deadly can't we Bram says: so what? Pilf snickers. Bram says: U die, and revivie Bram says: just a little prayer in the church... and U R back Pilf says: But lose XP, or EQ that you need for your current level ? Wing says: sure, but it doesn't have to be that way Wing says: you could have to convince Lars that you deserve a second chanse Pilf nods solemnly. Pilf says: By killing him. Pilf throws his head back and cackles with glee! Wing says: or something like that Pilf says: Just kidding. Bram says: THE lars? Bram says: and what? Ask him to graphicalize genesis? Bram says: ask him to call it regenesis? Wing says: it was just an example Helge Bram grins evilly. Bram says: Helge? Wing says: well it's a swedish phrase... Boob says: please translate Wing says: I did Wing says: didn't you notice? Boob looks dumbfounded Bram says: When playing BSX, you dont need to make strategic choices.... just use some common sense.... when using combat you add an element of strategy, which means challenge, which means excitement, which means addiction. Bram says: I think Pilf nods solemnly. Boob says: I think it would be a good and simple improvement to guide newbies through a series of quests Bram says: What good is money on this mud? Pilf chuckles politely. Wing says: I do not agree, I only feel mud-combat is silly Bram says: all ya can buy is irrelevant for the progress in the game Bram says: doesnt need to be combat Wing says: some people get addicted to mud-combat, but I think there are other things we could hook other persons on... Boob says: we could make this a financial investment MUD! Bram says: but it must be something that requires strategy, and risk. And it should cost you levels when done wrong. Boob says: you can destroy economically weaker opponents Bram says: nice idea. Boob says: oops, capitalistic American minds Boob says: I think right now people like to sell things so they have money Bram says: The major thing is: when a player reached lvl 21 (s)he must think: for every person that succeeds, 5 must have dropped out... I must have had some very good strategic skills. Boob says: but they do wonder what they're supposed to buy with it Bram says: Someone who makes it lvl 21 here, will not have the feeling of accomplishing a great thing, making it against all odds.... Now... if you have slained a 1000 monsters you DO get that feeling. Boob says: I don't think you have to have fought or killed, but you do need progressively more difficult challenges Bram says: So adding risk, in any way (financial maybe even) would have to be thrown in Wing says: that's because we only have a few quests Wing says: if we had 45 like nannymud people would think they had accomplishing something... Boob says: I agree Pilf says: Are there any quest only muds currently up and running ? Bram says: yet - you hhave had to run risks in order to feel good about yourself. Bram says: no risk in our quests., Wing says: sure quests can be risky Boob says: I still think you need a progression, so the first one isn't too tough so people aren't easily discouraged Bram says: What if we build a real life simulator? Bram says: Adding carreers/ income/ tax.... Boob says: right now, it's not obvious enough how to find quests Wing says: I would like a final quest, that you get hints (and auto-loading objects) for by solving the normal quests Pilf says: Then how about creating a tour guide ? Boob says: yes, the tax man - there's a scary challenge Wing shivers from the cold. Pilf says: Something that'll take newbies on a cab, and a quick tour. Bram says: BTW - If anyone ever did the caci quest... please help sam, to get him off my back. Another fortunate creature enters the realms of BSX, Please welcome Arduin. Boob says: I'll save him! Bram says: it has an element of sick. Boob dons his red cape Bram says: rick that is Pilf says: What does ? Caci ? Boob flaps his vestigial wings and waddles into oblivion. Bram says: the taxes Bram says: Nowhere in this mud, you have to gamble to lose all. Bram says: Level behaviour is strictly monotone ascent. Pilf says: So, did I get an answer ? Pilf says: Is there a quest only mud operational ? Bram says: Which question? Bram says: Wasnt that rethorical? Bram says: I know only 1 Wing says: don't think so Wing says: if you find one tell me Wing smiles happily. Pilf says: Besides, BSX. Bram says: no Pilf pokes Bram in the ribs. Bram says: Chances are that they wouldnt survive :-) I mean: no combat AND no graphiocs... man... that is bad,. Pilf nods solemnly. Wing says: acctually many normal muds seem to be trying to get rid of combat, or at least reduce it's importance... Arduin says: was wondering something awhile back... how come if this mud has a hi-tech look, there are SPELLS? Pilf says: Maybe PC combat, but not mob combat. Bram says: a little fluke, Arduin Arduin says: and shout command too? maybe it should be some walkie-talkie thing... Bram says: or a portable internet terminal Arduin says: that would be great Bram says: that goes cross-planet Arduin says: log in virtual reality in virtual reality in... Bram nods solemnly. Bram says: tell me arduin, what do you think about the addictive qualities iof BSX? Boob slowly shimmers into sight. Arduin says: first the graphics was just great... Arduin says: but then, when i couldnt do the quests... Arduin says: and there wasnt much else to do Arduin says: i lost interested after i had visited everyplace Arduin says: about Bram nods solemnly. Bram says: So, you all think there is nothing wrong with quest-only, even though it doesnot pose any risks? Jacques is suddenly frozen in time! Arduin says: hmm, some quests could have fights... Bram says: what sense would it have? If you die, your lvl would remain the same. Wing says: I think there should be challeges in quests Bram says: challenges or risks? Pilf says: both. Wing agrees with Pilf. Bram says: what risks? Bram says: risking your level? Wing says: no Bram says: your hp? Pilf's head shakes no. Wing says: I don't like levels Bram says: your money? Pilf says: Hp is useless if no combat. Wing nods solemnly. Arduin says: some muds have age... you die -> get older -> die Wing says: maybe being imprisoned Bram frowns. Wing says: maybe dieing, losing all money, having to go through a really boring death-sequence Pilf says: You lose the EQ currenlty needed to complete the quest for you next level. Arduin says: NOT BORING! Bram says: failure to solve a quest results in detention? Arduin says: i hate that Wing says: that's the point Wing smiles at Arduin. Bram says: so you risk detention.... so what... you just log on at night, and do your time, while being logged oof Pilf's head shakes no. Pilf says: No, you lose all the EQ you accumulated for your current quest. Bram says: What is EQ? Wing says: no, getting out of prison would of course be a quest by itself Arduin says: equipment Pilf says: If I died on Charon, I'd loose the walkie talkie, code book, detonator ... Pilf says: EQ = equipment Wing says: and we could make money count sometime in the future Bram says: What if we would add time limits to the quests? Pilf's head shakes no. Bram says: We gotta have something to scare them with Wing says: so you had to do some easy, but rather boring quest to get cash... Bram says: Normal muds use death Pilf says: Time would be tough. Boob says: you could give time bonus money, or make them "buy" time Wing says: money can be used for many things, taxis, buying nicer apartments, buying space-shit etc Arduin grins evilly. Boob says: taxis - great idea Pilf nods solemnly. Bram says: Nice! Pilf says: Space shit .... Wing says: players would try to get money instead of xp Pilf ponders the idea. Boob says: well you can already obtain and sell objects Bram sees some light at the end of the tunnel Wing says: much more realistic and would probably have the same effect Pilf says: So how will one earn money ? Bram says: the good thing about it is: solving a quest quickly will gain you money = power Bram says: This adds an element to the quest Boob says: ooh, more capitalist pig talk Pilf falls down laughing. Bram says: But this money should be needed for the next quest... Pilf nods solemnly. Boob says: by charging for taxis you accomplish that! Bram says: So if you fail one, it looks grim for ya.... without money.... you cant buy time for a quest. Wing says: or buy having quests where you are required to buy something, instead of just finding it lying on the ground Boob says: you can always find more stuff and sell it Bram says: A little scenario: Bram says: a new player is created.... Bram says: he gets 1000 time units... Bram says: when his time is up, he dies... .o is deleted. Bram says: every time he solves a quest, he gets another 500 Bram says: Doing 1 quest very fast will yield extra time for a more diff. quest Arduin says: there should be also a possibility to buy time units with cash = expensive Bram says: there is only 1 prob: Boob says: I'd sure hate to die on the 10th quest - I'd never come back Bram says: SUppose I die at lvl 3........ Arduin thinks deeply on a great philosophical problem. Wing says: I don't think that is a good idea Wing says: I think the only thing we should have is money Arduin says: maybe not die just like that... Bram says: I could get a new char... and solve the 2 VERY fast Bram says: so after each death it gets easier. Wing says: being broke should be a pain in the ass Boob says: could you steal money from others? Arduin grins evilly. Wing says: but we could have real death Bram says: yeah sure.... put 1000 Volts thru internet? Wing says: so in some quest you can get killed, and then you have to start over again Wing says: but I don't like the time idea Wing says: it doesn't seem realistic Pilf says: So how do you die without the combat ? Bram says: Ok, if you want to make money essential: question is : how? Pilf says: A brick falls on your head ? Pilf says: Without a hardhat .... You Die. Boob says: how about food? Bram says: another possibility.... Arduin says: heh, the mud i mentioned earlier: Boob says: that's a "familiar" item missing from regenesis Arduin says: you gotta eat to stay alive Bram nods solemnly. Arduin says: as well as growing older Boob says: need fountain of youth too! Arduin says: but you can buy potions of longevity... Arduin says: or do other tricks Wing says: money could be made essential by charging for everything...and making nifty things to buy Pilf grins evilly. Bram says: money should be essential not just for nifty stuff, but for making it to lvl 21 Bram says: question is how? All ya have to do are quests.... Arduin says: how about quest points? special kind of wealth... you can have a wish from a wiz with,say, 3 qp and wish for new body etc. Wing says: quests costs Bram says: with combat you could by a very good but expensive weapon Boob says: you could tell players they need x amount to advance to next quest/level Pilf throws approximately 132,432 large red bricks into sky. Pilf grins evilly. Pilf says: Sorry ... lost my head. Boob kicks Pilf. Pilf giggles inanely. Bram reincarnates Pilf falls down laughing. Pilf says: Um, that'll cost you 300 time usnit. Pilf says: Units. Pilf smiles at Bram. Wing says: and we could have some schepper-quest, for which you need to buy something really expensive (like a space-ship) + getting a lot of stuff and hints from the other quests Boob Boob is reincarnated as a ... Boob Arduin says: there was a movie where each baby got 1000 years when he/she was born... Wing says: if you ever get broke you have to start over earning the money for the space-ship Arduin says: time was use as money... 2 hours for cigarette etc. Boob says: only one hour for "low-tar" Arduin falls down laughing. Bram coughs noisily. Bram says: The issue of regenesis needs a lot more debate... however.. Boob lights up a stoagy Bram says: ... I suggest we go to the BSX/protocol issue Bram says: Ok with U? Boob nods solemnly. Arduin nods solemnly. Pilf nods solemnly. Bram says: We have several suggestions... Wing smiles happily. Wing nods solemnly. Bram says: 1) 256 colours Bram says: 2) 3D world coords Bram says: 3) Head mounted display + dataglove Bram says: 3) was not serious Bram smiles happily. Boob says: 1 should be pretty easy, no? Pilf nods solemnly. Bram says: depends Pilf says: These aren't exclusive I take it ? Bram says: depends on how you feel about backward compat. Bram says: No Bram says: not excl. Pilf says: Backwartd compat ? Boob says: I don't think backward compatibility is too important Pilf says: Backward to who ? Wing says: $@#@%# backwards compatibility Pilf chuckles politely. Boob says: we can always write tools to translate Pilf says: We're trying to move FORWARD. Wing agrees with Boob. Bram says: One scheme would be to map the 16 colours to the 16 lower colours of the 256 Pilf nods solemnly. Bram says: as it is now: Pilf shrugs helplessly. Pilf says: I don't think it's an issue. Pilf says: 256 in '93. Pilf smiles happily. Bram says: we have only 8 colours.... all in 2 brightness values Wing says: I think we should go directly to 24-bit colors Pilf says: No, not 24. Pilf's head shakes no. Wing says: and use colormaps to reduce band-width Boob says: 24-bit???? Boob says: ack Bram says: We could use 8 colours, in 32 brightness values. Pilf says: 24 bit would be a severe limitation to about 90 % of the real wolrd. Pilf says: World even. Boob says: 95% Pilf's head shakes no. Pilf says: 93% Wing says: that's a system that will last, I think we'll have to scrap 8-bit someday if we implement it... Pilf tackles Boob to the ground. OUCH! Wing says: why? Pilf says: Doubt it. Pilf says: Because 24 bit true color has not taken off in the real world. Wing says: converting from 24-bit to vga would for example be no problems Boob says: I think Boob says: therefore i am, oops Bram says: No - but it would mean a VERY diff. BSX protocol Wing says: no, it wouldn't Wing smiles happily. Pilf says: I know of about 3 or 4 workstations locally that are 24 bit... Bram says: DFO would chance Pilf says: Out of oh .... 200 ? Bram says: change that is Bram says: we have just 1 24-bitter here.... and 100s of others Pilf nods solemnly. Bram says: However... in 3 years we will ALL use 24-bit dps Pilf says: It would be a bad limitation. Pilf's head shakes no. Pilf says: I still don't agree with that. Pilf's head shakes no. Wing says: we'll most pcs handle 18 bits... Pilf says: What does 24 bit *REALLY* get you ? Bram says: 18 bits suck.... Boob says: 32,000,0,00,0000,0,0 colors Bram says: Elegance fro the programmers point of view Pilf chuckles politely. Bram says: a byte per R/G/B Pilf says: Elegance ? How so ? Bram says: programming couldnt be easier Pilf says: Unfortunately, it's slow and expensive ... Boob says: I think we'd be fine with a 256 color map. Bram says: If I want extra red in a pic, I just increase a singlebyte Pilf's head shakes no. Boob says: we DO have to download all this stuff to clients at some point Pilf says: No no .... I KNOW the diffs, but what's going to drive the market ? Bram says: The advantage of 8 bit, is that we can keep the current BXS protocol Pilf nods solemnly. Pilf says: RIGH! Pilf says: T! Pilf blushes. Wing says: besides with 8-bit colors we don't even get tha capability of a pc... Boob says: not to mention the BSX protocol Boob says: sorry Bram says: But that disadvantage would drop if we were to go to 3d world coords Pilf nods solemnly. Bram says: that would seriously mess up the proto anyways Wing says: and with the system I'm thinking of would not increase band-width very much... Pilf stares unbelievably at his bandwidth going to hell. Bram says: only a few % Wing says: because you would use a colormap, that translates 8-bit values to 24-bit colors Bram says: if 24-bit means 20% more traffic, it would be much. Bram says: You forget something, wing: Bram says: No need for colourmaps Wing says: the increase would be the specification of a colormap for each object, and transmitting the colormap Wing says: no, colormaps are for saving band-width... Bram says: The colour is only 3 bytes for each poly, which in it's turn can be 64 bytes.... see? Pilf says: Now WAIT a second ????? Bram says: only 5% Wing agrees with Bram. Bram says: It's not a 3-fold increment Bram says: it's a 5-10% incr. Bram says: But: it means redoing ALL locations AND the protocol Bram says: however... Bram says: 8 bit can remain compatible with BOTH old locations AND protocol Wing says: well I've felt that that has to be done anyway Wing grins evilly. Bram nods solemnly. Wing says: since the protocol is a large hack Wing smiles at Bram. Bram says: The protocol/client changes: ok.... but can we expect ALL scheppers who ever build, to redraw/reprogram/ whatevere? Pilf chuckles politely. Bram says: just for 24bit colour? Wing says: conversion won't be too hard Bram says: Which 99% of the people wont be able to view? Wolverine slowly shimmers into sight. Pilf nods solemnly. Wing says: it's not only for 24-bit... Bram thinks Wing has a 24-bit SGI on hos desk Wolverine says: there was no quiz! Wing says: besides 99% of the people would see the change Pilf says: THAT'S the problem: Which 99% of the people wont be able to view? Wing says: because they have 18-bit vga... Wolverine waves. Bram says: Hi WOlvie Bram says: We've been talking about U Wolverine says: will one individual tell me what I missed? Wing says: I don't think you will use more than 256 24-bit colors in one scene... Bram says: Your proposal gets implemented Bram points at Wing and looks away Wolverine says: My proposal? Bram says: as U stated in your letter of 15 feb Wolverine says: Wing's proposal. Wing says: better help at first login Wolverine says: gotcha. Bram says: Q/A system to lead newbies by the hand Bram says: Hello Wolverine, which machine do you have? A: Amiga Reply: that's a fine machnine. *LAUGH* Pilf says: Wing, if you don't think you'll ever use more than 256 24-bit colors in one scene, then why bother w/24-bi? Boob flaps his vestigial wings and waddles into oblivion. Wing says: because you can't choose the right 256 colors Wolverine says: I am on a Sparc IPX with 24 bit graphics at the moment. Wing says: someday someone would want to draw a golden coin Bram looks at wolverine with envy Pilf says: Yes, if you colormap you can. Wolverine says: the Amiga supports a simultaneous 4096 colors Wing says: it won't be possible with 8-bit colors Bram says: If it has to be 24-bit, I wouldnt like palettes/colourmaps Pilf says: If it's 24 bit, you don't NEED palettes/colourmaps Bram says: True Jacques is destructed by anti-linkdead matter. Wing says: depends on the implementation Bram says: I have another colour related suggestion: Pilf says: I think the current limitations in the color scheme, expanded to 256, would solve alot of our probs. Bram says: suppose we give the server control over an 8-bit palette of the client.... Bram says: Then we could implement dawn: Bram says: gradualy add brightness.. Bram says: imagine: Bram says: a dark room Bram says: all colour have brightness 0 Wolverine says: that sounds nice. Bram says: Then a single torch goes on: Bram says: all colours get 10% brightness Bram says: a 2nd torch: 20% Pilf nods solemnly. Wing says: well, I think it would be hard to code... Pilf says: That would be neeat. Wolverine `s eyes flutter in wonder. Bram says: Full day light at 12:00 100% Bram says: in the open air at 18:00 : 50% Bram says: You could get time of day Bram smiles happily. Wolverine says: sounds like a game called Faery Tale by Mircro Illusions Bram says: just gradualy increase the brightness of all locations in open air Bram says: In a building however: Bram says: we use a simple lightswitch between 0 and 70% Wing says: I think it's better to implement several colormaps that could be changed Bram says: Why? Bram says: There is no reason to have cmaps, when you go 24 bit. Bram says: Let's say U design that golden coin, OK? Wolverine says: guys, are the details essential now, or when you start programming? Wing says: because it would be too hard to figure out what color to use with a global colormap... Bram says: Now I design a windmill with totaly diff. cmap.... Wing says: better if I could say that color 0 is blue in my area... Bram says: What happens if I drop your coin at my mill? Wing says: nothing really exciting Bram says: we clash cmaps! Wolverine says: Bram has a point, wing. Bram says: which cmap to use? Wing says: the client uses colormap 1 for tha coin and colormap 2 for the mill Wolverine says: I know all about this. Bram says: yours? the mill looks shit Peugh slowly shimmers into sight. Bram says: mine? the coin look brown Peugh says: Still talkin. Wing says: nope Wing says: we have several colormaps Wing says: not one global Boob slowly shimmers into sight. Wolverine says: he is trying to explain that color maps will conflict with each othr unless they are done by the same user. Wing says: that can be used at tthe same time Wing says: no point Bram says: with 24-bit we have a HUGE global colourmap that suits everyone. Pilf says: *IF* the machine is true color. Pilf doubles over and pukes. Bram says: Your golden coin can use it. and my mill Wolverine says: If the machine is true color, then yes, your point is sensible, but with 256 colors, it may not. Pilf drops the record. Wing says: well using more than 256 colors at the same time is a problem Wolverine says: oh, and if we are choosing a palette of some sort, I think that I might have some input (as an artist) on color choices for realism Pilf left the realms of bsx, and now has to deal with the harsh cold world outside. Bram says: there is always the HSV model Bram says: to suit artists. Wolverine smiles happily. Bram says: about the 3D extention: I am affraid that you have to debate that without me.... this building closes at 18:00 GMT. Wolverine says: did it pass? Wolverine says: are we going 3D? Wing says: but I don't really care whether we implement 24-bit colors or 24-bit colormaps... Bram says: I do: lets go for 24-bit true Wing says: just don't implement 8-bit direct color... Bram says: then a 8-bit drop the 16 LSB Arduin is magically transfered here. Arduin is magically transfered somewhere else. Bram says: sure Wolverine says: yeah, and leave out every single user who uses a PC or AMiga or Mac client Emperor Peugh is a Wisconsonite at heart (MetaRoyalty) wraps their cloak around them several times, looking like an idiot, and with a flash of light they are gone. Peugh suddenly disappears right before your eyes. Bram says: 8 bit direct Arduin is magically transfered somewhere else. Wing says: wolverine we won't leave out pc or mac uses Freak slowly shimmers into sight. Bram says: on EGA: the 18 LSB bits are dropped Wing says: since we won't use that many colors simultainiously Wolverine says: with 24 bit, youwill leave out any AMiga user who doesn't have an A1200 or A4000 Wing agrees with Bram. Wolverine says: oh, so you will scale it down then? Bram nods solemnly. Bram says: drop LSB bits Wing says: sure Wolverine says: somebody better tell Ferry that he has some programming ahead of him...` Peugh slowly shimmers into sight. Wolverine says: I had better go to lecture now, where is the log being kept? Bram says: anyways... I gotta leave the buidling now.... Bram says: We should continue this sometime, over LYSKOM or something Wing says: well I'll put the log on lysators ftp Wing says: yes Freak says: thankyou Mr. President Bram says: thanks... Bram says: I wanna thank U all for your input Bram waves. Bram says: I will Bram left the realms of bsx, and now has to deal with the harsh cold world outside. Peugh clicks his heels and salutes Bram. Freak says: wow! Wolverine says: bye guys, I have class. Wolverine waves. Freak says: this has been a truly historic occasion Peugh waves. Wing says: yes Wing says: but we didn't get to the interesting parts Wing sighs deeply. Peugh says: Anyone for a donut? Freak says: what are they? Peugh says: Donuts? Little round things with holes in the middle. Peugh says: Really good. Freak says: no what are the interesting parts we missed? Freak giggles inanely. Freak pokes Peugh in the ribs. Wing says: extensions to the protocol Freak says: getting a little fat peugh Wing says: like sane position of objects Wing says: scaling of objects Wing says: turning objects