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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 72
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Fannishness
RE: [B7L] Non-vegetarian Pratchett deities
RE: [B7L] Shakespeare and B7
RE: [B7L] Shakespeare and B7
Re: [B7L] Fannishness
[B7L] Mary-Sues
Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness)
Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's XI v Babylon XI cricket match at Redemption
Re: [B7L] Fannishness
[B7L] Charged with attempted filking...
[B7L] Re: OT, Fannishness
Re: [B7L] Re: Roche limit
re: [B7L] Fannishness
Re: [B7L] Fannishness
Re: [B7L] Charged with attempted filking...
Re: [B7L] Re: OT, Fannishness
Re: Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness)
Re: Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness)
Re: [B7L] Constructive Criticism (was re: Fannishness)
Re: [B7L] Fannishness
[B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Charged with attempted filking...
Re: [B7L] Fannishness
Re: [B7L] Shakespeare and B7
[B7L] B7 and Shakespeare
Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
[B7L] More B7 game stats
Re: [B7L] B7 and Shakespeare
[B7L] Re:corgi liberator
Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats
Re: [B7L] Too much caffeine
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:24:13 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fannishness
Message-ID: <36D0878D.B1144D53@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Hanneke wrote:
> Real Mary Sues are easy to recognize. They're *very*
> pretty, *very* clever and extremely brave. In gen
> stories they end up kissing Avon, in het stories they
> end up in bed with Avon, and in slash stories they end
> up in an Avon/Tarrant sandwich. :))))
Then perhaps I shall force myself to write one in which Mary Sue is
*not* very pretty, *not* very clever, and *definitely not* brave. Wait a
minute-- I'm not Vila!!!
<smiley>
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:22:04 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: RE: [B7L] Non-vegetarian Pratchett deities
Message-ID: <19990221222204.16022.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Jacqueline said:
>Irredeemably damned means we take away your chocolate and I >come to
sing in your house. Truly a fate worse than death.
Taking away chocolate is fairly cruel. However, you might want my
brother to do the singing, especially when he comes home from the oil
rig in Bass Strait - tuneful will be very far down the list of
adjectives you could choose from.
>> >Acolyte in charge of torture and singing in the holy vegetarian
>> >crusade
>> Hopefully, they are not one and the same thing! <grin>
>> Regards Joanne (probably about to join the irredeemably damned >>for
that last comment!)
>Nah, we don't punish people for being right.
But thankyou for the warning, anyway. As for singing, I shall, very
shortly, be posting my very first attempt at a filk, as a means of
stopping the idea from tormenting me. Be as kind or as cruel as it
warrants. But the tune may not be something all the Australian members
of the list are familiar with, so I will have to request the indulgence
of everyone else for this.
Regards
Joanne
(in trepidation)
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:38:21 +0100
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: RE: [B7L] Shakespeare and B7
Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F10FB3F@NL-ARN-MAIL01>
Content-Type: text/plain
Joanne wrote:
> That would be torture, but not the kind Jacqueline was thinking of. Paul
> reading that one, oh dear! <dissolving into puddle on floor noises>
>
Does that mean that in this case Paul would make you suffer prettily?
Jacqueline
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:42:31 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: RE: [B7L] Shakespeare and B7
Message-ID: <19990221224231.17649.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
>> That would be torture, but not the kind Jacqueline was thinking of.
>> Paul reading that one, oh dear! <dissolving into puddle on floor >>
noises>
>Does that mean that in this case Paul would make you suffer prettily?
>Jacqueline
It would certainly make a change from Avon suffering beautifully,
wouldn't it? <grin>
Regards
Joanne
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:55:05 -0600 (CST)
From: hill susan a <adairh@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu>
To: blakes 7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fannishness
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.96.990221165029.16057A-100000@staff2.cso.uiuc.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sun, 21 Feb 1999, Hanneke wrote:
in reply to mistral or Penny or Helen
> > Mary-Sue Something). Why Mary-Sue and not
> Bobbie-Jean? No idea.
>
> Because the very first Mary Sue was written by a Mary
> Sue Something, whose orginal character was also named
> Mary Sue. Well, at least that's what they told me. :))
Not quite. The first Official Mary Sue story was written by Paula Smith
in the days when Star Trek was the only fandom. Her character was named
Mary Sue, and the story was a parody of just the type of story mistral
describes - wishfulfilling, with the Mary Sue character as beautiful,
competant, and beloved of Kirk, Spock, or both. This character gave the
name to the genre.
I was not in fandom when the Mary Sue story was written, but I heard about
it (and read the story) from friends who were.
Susan Adair
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:57:53 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Mary-Sues
Message-ID: <36D08F71.9B1A7266@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Hey, Penny,
If Avon falls for a mutoid, is that a Mary-Sue? Or possibly a
Mary-Suzanne?
(Maybe it's just birds of a feather.)
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:22:24 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness)
Message-ID: <19990222082224.55416@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 09:47:09AM -0800, mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
> And
> then, of course, there is my personal pet peeve of fanfic-- stories that
> blantantly insert an obvious author avatar as a major but completely
> unengaging character, generally as a love interest for one of our
> heroes. IMO (not so humble), these should come with a warning label-- I
> am not a voyeur. I would not put my romantic fantasies in the public
> eye, and I would prefer not to read anyone else's. (Not that I'm against
> romance-- I don't mind couples made up of recognizable series
> characters.) But I'm surprised that in all the back digests I've read,
> this issue never comes up. Is nobody else annoyed by this? Or is there
> some tacit agreement about which I'm unaware, either not to mention
> this, or for everybody to tolerate this kind of story in order to have
> his own tolerated? Hmm, I don't mean to yank anybody's chain, but this
> puzzles me.
Oh, I assure you, plenty of people are annoyed by this. This kind of
story even has its own label: they're called "Mary-Sue" stories.
Apparently due to the fact that the very first (or first well known)
story of this type, a Star Trek story, had as the avatar character, a
Lt. Mary Sue.
As for why it doesn't seem to have come up on this List, I'm not sure.
Maybe because people have tended to discuss the series more than
fanfic?
It certainly comes up with periodic regularity on some of the fan
fiction Lists that I'm on. And it appears to be a practice
universally condemned on the one hand, and argued about on the other
as to whether a particular story is a Mary-Sue or not, considering
that some people take *any* story with an original (female) character
and call it a Mary-Sue, whether the character bears any resemblance to
the author or not.
The other variation on Mary-Sue discussion, is whether self-insertion
fiction (where the original character is explicitly the author, with
all flaws intact, rather than an idealized fictionalized character) is
a Mary-Sue of that kind, whether it is possible to write good
self-insertion fiction, and what the good ones are.
To which I would say, yes it is possible to write good ones, and I
suggest you go off and read "The Totally Imaginary Cheeseboard".
(-8
Kathryn A.
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:27:42 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's XI v Babylon XI cricket match at Redemption
Message-ID: <f2f8a15e.36d0c09e@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Sally wrote (about my interest in Tarrant in his cricket whites):
> Not single-minded or anything, are we, Carol?
Consistency is a virtue that I try to practice.
> We're supposed to be
> watching the *game*.
Oh yes, the game... I had a feeling I was forgetting something. <g>
> (Avon in white...hmmm. Be worth staying awake for)
For sure. Think of how pretty Avon looked when he went down to the moondisk
planet. You keep your eye on him while I watch Tarrant. We can leave the
detail work to Harriet.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:34:27 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fannishness
Message-ID: <36D0D042.21C7@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Another 'Mary-Sue' problem story type, besides the 'X becomes love
interest even if it means making Established Character act in an
uncharacteristic fashion' is the 'X comes along and saves all of the
regular heroes who have suddenly become incompetent enough to have to
rely completely on the stranger'. Either way, ick.
OTOH, the creation of new characters is valuable in ways Neil has
pointed out, in that one can explore areas not filled out in the Canon.
One could perhaps put out an entire zine themed with Blake's 7 universe
stories consisting primarily of secondary characters, such as Avalon,
Tyce, Del Grant; and originals with a Mutoid focussed story or one about
one of the failed uprisings only mentioned in dialogue within the Canon/
That could be very exciting.
Further, I'd love to see PGP stories that take up with half the crew
bring in new rebels.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:40:21 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Charged with attempted filking...
Message-ID: <19990222034022.9031.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
<quivering slightly> I may live to regret this...especially as Hotmail
thinks I've already sent this, but I didn't receive my own posting back,
as is usually the case. So forgive me if you've received this
previously, because I'm not so sure of forgiveness for what follows...
I Make Computers
(tune: I Make Hamburgers, by The Whitlams)
My first customer was Meegat
She came in for a computer with the lot, no Windows
"Hey, that's an Apple Mac," I said
And we started going out.
My second customer was Soolin
She came in for defragmentation morning tea, each day
And I said, "Your disks don't need all that rearranging,
Do you wanna come out tonight?"
I said, "I'll bring Vila, he's got a lot of money [1]
And he'll take us to the bars where they've got a view
He'll buy us that soma [2]
They give it to you in glasses
They put green antifreeze in the top
And it don't taste too bad I'm telling you, telling you.
My third customer was Servalan
She came in for greater RAM capacity
"More power," she said
"Well now, now you're talkin'."
She took me home to meet her mutoids.
My fourth customer was Anna
She came in for nothing I could see except me
So it was I too was making connections of a sort
Within an hour
I make computers, I get all the girls
And I take them out to dinner
And I give all a whirl
And if they program I keep them
If they don't I keep them too
But I teach them all how to be logical
Like you. [3]
[1] Because he stole it, of course
[2] What else?
[3] The image ended up being Avon singing this adoringly to Orac. This
makes me wonder, today, if I was suffering from heatstroke, yesterday
when I wrote this, and didn't realise.
Time to find my shell and hide in it yet again.
Regards
Joanne
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:09:17 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: OT, Fannishness
Message-ID: <199902212309_MC2-6B52-E58E@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Mistral wrote:
>Be warned about the Julius Caesar; it has good scenes and awful
>scenes, and the bits with Pacey and Keating are short; still, if you
>like star-gazing, it has lots of famous actors, and Charleton Heston
>comes off pretty well.
The earlier version with James Mason, Gielgud (as Cassius instead of
Caesar) and Marlon Brando is probably the best one to see, though I have
never seen an entirely satisfactory version of what is my favourite play.
Never mind about the absence of Pacey and Keating - Blake and Avon are in
the text already.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:33:41 +1000
From: "David Henderson" <David.Henderson@jcu.edu.au>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Roche limit
Message-ID: <009601be5e1c$87ce6be0$9537db89@lemon.jcu.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From Harriet:
>Iain wrote:
>>(This would be so much easier with a blackboard, you know.)
>
>Perhaps, if we could rustle up a blackboard at Redemption (hey, some of us
>should be there a week from now!), you and Neil could stage an extra
>workshop to demonstrate the possibly contesting, possibly complementary
>theories?
And then someone could post the images to the Redemption web site for us
clueless and geographically challenged ones.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:00:13 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: re: [B7L] Fannishness
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0221190013-063Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Sun 21 Feb, mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
> And then, of course, there is my personal pet peeve of fanfic-- stories that
> blantantly insert an obvious author avatar as a major but completely
> unengaging character, generally as a love interest for one of our heroes. IMO
> (not so humble), these should come with a warning label-- I am not a voyeur. I
> would not put my romantic fantasies in the public eye, and I would prefer not
> to read anyone else's. (Not that I'm against romance-- I don't mind couples
> made up of recognizable series characters.) But I'm surprised that in all the
> back digests I've read, this issue never comes up. Is nobody else annoyed by
> this? Or is there some tacit agreement about which I'm unaware, either not to
> mention this, or for everybody to tolerate this kind of story in order to have
> his own tolerated? Hmm, I don't mean to yank anybody's chain, but this puzzles
> me.
The type of story you refer to is commonly called a 'Mary Sue' and lots of
people hate them. You certainly aren't alone. The fact that a name exists for
them probably says it all really.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 01:02:56 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fannishness
Message-ID: <19990222090256.12335.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
From Mistral -
The most common victim of this distortion appears to
>be Avon--can you really imagine Tall, Dark, and Nasty turning into a
puddle
>of mush just because some woman throws herself into his arms (which
I've
>quite literally read--oops, wait, the mush part was metaphorical)?
Well we all saw what he did when one thre herself at his *feet* - jumped
four feet back with a 'let's not start all that again & spent the rest
of the episode copping cheek from Vila...
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 02:51:30 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Charged with attempted filking...
Message-ID: <36D136B2.BC729222@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joanne MacQueen wrote:
> [3] The image ended up being Avon singing this adoringly to Orac. This
> makes me wonder, today, if I was suffering from heatstroke, yesterday
> when I wrote this, and didn't realise.
This really makes me wish I knew the tune. Thanx for sharing your
filk.Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 02:57:13 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: OT, Fannishness
Message-ID: <36D13808.DE0AB0E6@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Harriet Monkhouse wrote (Re Julius Caesar):
> The earlier version with James Mason, Gielgud (as Cassius instead of
> Caesar) and Marlon Brando is probably the best one to see, though I have
> never seen an entirely satisfactory version of what is my favourite play.
I've never seen this version; but if it's your favorite play, then your
opinion must surely be considered informed; I intend to be on the lookout for
it. I've been looking for an improvement over the other one. Thank you.
8-DMistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 03:31:11 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness)
Message-ID: <36D13FFE.BA9F9ECA@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Kathryn Andersen wrote:
> It certainly comes up with periodic regularity on some of the fan
> fiction Lists that I'm on. And it appears to be a practice
> universally condemned on the one hand, and argued about on the other
> as to whether a particular story is a Mary-Sue or not, considering
> that some people take *any* story with an original (female) character
> and call it a Mary-Sue, whether the character bears any resemblance to
> the author or not.
Yes, this was sort of my point, although apparently I didn't express my
thoughts clearly (big surprise ;-P). The proliferation of the type I was
referring to tends to make one suspicious of all original, plot-significant
(female) characters, particularly those written in 1st-person. And I do *like*
original characters-- the rebellion would get dull if our heroes always stayed
on the ship and never interacted with anybody else. I could be quite happy
about new characters, even a permanent addition to the crew complement, as
long as they were clearly *characters*, serving the purpose of *story*,
instead of one more bad cliché. But I've begun to wonder whether it isn't
safer for an author to just avoid new characters altogether, in order to avoid
them being thought of as Mary-Sues (which would rather frighten me).
However, considering the volume of response my inquiry/rant has generated,
perhaps now I know why it never comes up-- all forget I said anything, I'm
quite embarrassed.
Re self-insertion fiction (Not Mary-Sues):
> To which I would say, yes it is possible to write good ones, and I
> suggest you go off and read "The Totally Imaginary Cheeseboard".
Actually, I've been looking forward to reading this one, when time and budget
allows; now that you've endorsed it to me, I shall move it higher on my list.
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 03:30:54 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness)
Message-ID: <36D13FED.76EEA114@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Kathryn Andersen wrote:
> It certainly comes up with periodic regularity on some of the fan
> fiction Lists that I'm on. And it appears to be a practice
> universally condemned on the one hand, and argued about on the other
> as to whether a particular story is a Mary-Sue or not, considering
> that some people take *any* story with an original (female) character
> and call it a Mary-Sue, whether the character bears any resemblance to
> the author or not.
Yes, this was sort of my point, although apparently I didn't express my
thoughts clearly (big surprise ;-P). The proliferation of the type I was
referring to tends to make one suspicious of all original, plot-significant
(female) characters, particularly those written in 1st-person. And I do *like*
original characters-- the rebellion would get dull if our heroes always stayed
on the ship and never interacted with anybody else. I could be quite happy
about new characters, even a permanent addition to the crew complement, as
long as they were clearly *characters*, serving the purpose of *story*,
instead of one more bad cliché. But I've begun to wonder whether it isn't
safer for an author to just avoid new characters altogether, in order to avoid
them being thought of as Mary-Sues (which would rather frighten me).
However, considering the volume of response my inquiry/rant has generated,
perhaps now I know why it never comes up-- all forget I said anything, I'm
quite embarrassed.
Re self-insertion fiction (Not Mary-Sues):
> To which I would say, yes it is possible to write good ones, and I
> suggest you go off and read "The Totally Imaginary Cheeseboard".
Actually, I've been looking forward to reading this one, when time and budget
allows; now that you've endorsed it to me, I shall move it higher on my list.
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:33:12 +0000
From: Russ Massey <russ@wriding.demon.co.uk>
To: Neil Faulkner <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
Cc: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Constructive Criticism (was re: Fannishness)
Message-ID: <xlpI4IAoJT02EwVt@wriding.demon.co.uk>
In message <000a01be5d66$b788dd40$5c1eac3e@default>, Neil
Faulkner <N.Faulkner@tesco.net> writes
>Penny wrote:
>>I didn't mean to imply I was an English (ie Literature) major -- the
>>only English I took was the prerequisite Freshman course. I've
>>definitely read more Pratchett than Shakespeare. And more comic books
>>than all (other?) literary genres put together, I'm sure. What I *meant*
>>was that my post-secondary education had hardened my heart to
>>Constructive Criticism, a.k.a. People Who Are Obviously Stupider Than
>>You Trying To Prove That You Are Stupider Than Them.
>
>It isn't always like that. I've had some extremely helpful input from
>Judith P, Russ Massey and others over the years. And Judith isn't
>_obviously_ stupider than me...
Hmm... Meaning *what* exactly. Nope. I must be too stupid to work
out if I'm being insulted there :)
> My general reaction to constructive
>criticism runs something like this:
>
>On receiving it - 'The bastards. How dare they?'
>Two hours later - 'Okay, so they might have a point.'
>24 hours later - 'Okay, so they _do_ have a point.'
>One week later - 'I really hate rewriting, but...'
>
>Mind you, nobody's yet managed to tell me how to construct a manageable
>plot. That's how most of my fanfic ends up unfinished.
>
If anyone enlightens you then put them in touch with me next. One
word of advice - know where you're intending to end up. The
beginning and middle can take care of themselves as long as have some
end point to steer them towards. More often than not my stories that
are unfinished are the ones that I wrote with no clear idea of the
climax.
--
Russ Massey
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:08:09 +0000
From: Russ Massey <russ@wriding.demon.co.uk>
To: mistral@ptinet.net
Cc: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fannishness
Message-ID: <T1FA8PAZqT02Ewxx@wriding.demon.co.uk>
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In message <36D0469D.B1F75473@ptinet.net>, mistral@ptinet.net
writes
>Neil said:
>
>> You can't write 'the' characters, only your own interpretation
>> of them. This is what the scriptwriters themselves did, with consequent
>> irregularities - by and large it worked, though, because the series does not
>> delve too deeply into character, being primarily plot-oriented. Fanfic,
>> OTOH, is frequently character-dominant, and the various interpretations of
>> the characters show up more starkly.
>>
>I'd really like some concrete examples from you about why you find the
>show to be plot-oriented. I can't stop laughing, because I've always
>considered B7 to be pretty much a plot-free zone, with the main emphasis
>on characters, relationships, and philosophy.
I'd always considered that Neil and I were in fairly close agreement on
what makes good B7 fiction, but I'm with you here. B7 struck such a
chord with me originally because the characters were so much more
engaging due to their character flaws and the black humour that
permeated the series. There *are* some very well plotted episodes
(Star One, The Way Back, Gold and er... I can't think of an example
from the third season off hand) among all the stock plots and sciffy
clichés, but no matter how hackneyed the plot or risible the special
effects what kept me watching every week and still fascinates me even
now is the inter-personal dynamic of the non-team.
>I don't mean laughing at
>you, just laughing at how poles apart we see it; and since I've asked
>for concrete examples, I'll give some for my side: 1) My best friend
>loathes science-fiction; she won't read it, and makes disparaging
>comments when her husband and I are watching it; but I showed her
>'Volcano' and 'City at the Edge of the World' ( I think the series C eps
>stand alone the most easily), and she liked it; she's looking forward to
>seeing more of it, and her comment was basically 'Oh, I see, it's in a
>science-fiction setting, but it's not really science-fiction, it's about
>the relationships between the characters.'
Volcano? I can't imagine ever showing that to someone as their first
taste of B7, but obviously you must be a good judge of character. And
it has one of the best B7 bondage scenes of course :) Whoops - thought
I was on Space City there.
> With no coaching from me. 2)
>When it comes to writing, plot is my weakest suit; but by the first time
>I saw series C, I could often predict whole episodes from just the first
>scene or two, occasionally from just the title; so as bad as I am at
>plotting, I just can't consider that they had much of a plot. 3) Bounty,
>which as far as I can tell, has no plot at all, but has two very telling
>bits of character/relationship illustration: the first, when Blake has
>just smashed Sarkoff's record and is holding the butterfly case in a
>threatening manner; that takes my breath every time, as it just
>crystallizes all of the things that I dislike about Blake (not that I
>dislike Blake: there are also plenty of things to like about him),
It's an all time favourite character-revealing scene of mine as well,
and yet was probably improvised at short notice because of the
paucity of Nation's original script.
> and
>second, when Vila is having difficulty removing Blake's collar, and he
>and Avon are sniping at each other, he tells Avon "Shut up--please",
>whereupon Avon turns back to the door he's opening and smiles to
>himself-- that is series A and B Avon and Vila at their best. These tiny
>moments are the things that make B7 a hit with me.
And the back-biting against Jenna when she's assumed to have sold
them out together with the total lack of any apology afterwards when
their shown to be wrong. Surely it should have been obvious whose
side Jenna was really on when she kicked their restraints out of sight
of the guard without revealing that they were attempting to free
themselves? I never understood quite what there was no reaction to
that.
> OK, that's my view;
>now show me some plot.
>
My summary of the plot would be:
The Liberator is taken over. Jenna joins the attackers. Has she sold
out the crew?
The rest is padding. The Sarkoffs needn't be in the story at all.
<snipped - a lot of stuff I agree with on what readers should be able to
expect from authors regarding character>
>
>I do agree that much fanfic comes across as too character-dominant;
>which is to say, I think it tends to dip too deeply into characters'
>heads, and often times with the wrong voice--a Cally that sounds more
>like Jenna, an overly introspective Avon, a Vila who thinks like an
>Alpha *without* a corresponding justification for it.
Characterisation is fine, but it bores me unless it also comes out of
plot. I don't enjoy stories based around two or more characters locked
in a room holding a conversation. There has to be a motivating force.
Character insights come out of observed reaction to events, not from
introspection.
> Film avoids this
>by using dialogue and action to show character, which it must do, as it
>has the camera's-eye viewpoint, and not a narrator. IMHO, that is what
>successful fanfic must do more of, showing as opposed to telling.
Yes, I think that's what I'm trying to say.
> And
>then, of course, there is my personal pet peeve of fanfic-- stories that
>blantantly insert an obvious author avatar as a major but completely
>unengaging character, generally as a love interest for one of our
>heroes.
The fabled 'Mary Sue'. I find it totally off-putting unless it's done
subtlely.
--
Russ Massey
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:39:14 GMT0BST
From: "VJC" <csm80316@port.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <224DB8C5B38@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk>
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Antone interested in getting back to that interesting temperment
analysis strand?
Vick
Sociopath and INTP
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 06:45:47 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Charged with attempted filking...
Message-ID: <dd90399a.36d1436b@aol.com>
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Joanne was pulled over by the filk police and given a citation of merit for:
<snipping most of filk to avoid repetition>
> [3] The image ended up being Avon singing this adoringly to Orac. This
> makes me wonder, today, if I was suffering from heatstroke, yesterday
> when I wrote this, and didn't realise.
<snort> I love the image of Avon singing of his conquests to Orac. I wonder
if Orac had any stories to tell in return? I've often fancied that Slave and
Gambit (the computer in "Games") would make an interesting pair, but I can't
imagine anyone or anyit putting up with Orac.
Quick comment on the Michael-Steven "Julius Caesar." I agree that it is a
very uneven production, with some dazzling moments and other moments where the
performer(s) appears to be reading from a cereal box. It was disappointing
(for me) that some of Lucius's (Steven's character) lines from the play did
not make the movie. :( But little-boy Steven delivered the lines he had quite
competently. His wobbly walk to illustrate his character's recent return to
wakefulness was also well done. Michael was outstanding in his bit part, very
easily managing to stand out in the crowd, and looked very fetching. I
even--shock!--liked his facial hair.
I bought a "professional" videotape of the play in a two-box set of Charlton
Heston's work ("Call of the Wild" was the other movie), but found that the
audio track was badly distorted. I returned it for a different copy only to
find it was the same. The movie does occasionally show up on US cable
channels. One of my sisters taped it off one of the all-movie stations for me
a few years ago. The sound on that is fine, though the visual on my
"professional" copy is better.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 03:54:06 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fannishness
Message-ID: <36D1455D.A792E211@ptinet.net>
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Sally Manton wrote:
> Well we all saw what he did when one thre herself at his *feet* - jumped
> four feet back with a 'let's not start all that again & spent the rest
> of the episode copping cheek from Vila...
Yes, well, at least he didn't dismember her or some such... actually, I
thought he behaved quite well, considering; I always find when I watch that
episode that I'm embarrassed for Avon and Meegat both (not that I'm against
hero-worship, you understand <g>). Still and all, I have to say that being
worshipped seems a lot less emotionally invasive than being drooled over by
a total stranger.
Vila, on the other hand, would enjoy both (can you say 'Vila's Royal
Mounties'?) Hmm... I wonder how Tarrant would have reacted if he'd been with
them when they met Meegat? How would it have affected the Avon/Tarrant
alpha-male power struggle? I always chuckle over Tanith Lee's decision
(conscious or not) to keep them separated (locationally) in the episode
'Sand'.
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:50:01 +1100
From: "Afenech" <Fenech@onaustralia.com.au>
To: "B7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Shakespeare and B7
Message-Id: <11495986593923@domain6.bigpond.com>
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Mistral suggested:
> >Actually, there is a wish that might be doable; I fancy an audiotape of
> >G.T. and P.D. reading the sonnets. ....
Julia seconded:
> Now that *is* a nice idea. Wonder if anyone can be persuaded to take it
> up?
Or 'Julius Caesar' - I would buy several!!! of both -smile-
It is something I have sometimes thought about - why, oh why, are those
two lovely voices not used more for audio-books?
Pat Fenech
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:31:57 +1100
From: "Afenech" <Fenech@onaustralia.com.au>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] B7 and Shakespeare
Message-Id: <11502328693972@domain6.bigpond.com>
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Hello all -smile-
Paul Darrow used to say the role he'd most like to do is 'Coriolanus' and
it's a roel I'd love to see him play.
Pat F
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:09:52 +0200
From: "422ami" <422ami@nt52.parliament.bg>
To: "Helen Krummenacker" <avona@jps.net>, <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation
Message-Id: <199902221158.MAA25246@samantha.lysator.liu.se>
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Helen Krummenacker wrote:
> I think he is incorrigible in a totalitarian environment, where
> it is a crime to challenge authority. Where it is a crime to challenge
> authority, then the desire comes to challenge authority through crime.
Let me, basing on my own experience in living in totalitarian society, to
say, that the usual way, one use to challenge authority _never_ is a crime.
The crime level in the totalitarian societies is even lower, than in
democratic ones.
I think, Avon's crime is his attempt to escape from authorities more, than
attempt to challenge them. I can't see him in the shoes of that hero from
Terry Gilliam's 'Brazil' - the Helpman, who challenges the rulers, using
smart gadgets and making small repairs, unpermitted from the authority.
This is dangerous game and the risk to be captured always exists. Avon
values his own life more, than to spend it, playing games with the
Federation. (This sort of people make totalitarian societies _that_
steady...)
The Bulgarian Hellen
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 04:14:01 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D14A08.B62422A4@ptinet.net>
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VJC wrote:
> Antone interested in getting back to that interesting temperment
> analysis strand?
>
> Vick
>
> Sociopath and INTP
Very much so -- it has always seemed to me to be a pretty inexhaustible
subject; but then, I adore psychology. What did you want to say about
it?
Mistral
INTP (100% introversion scores, borderline P/J, borderline sociopath)
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:30:24 +0000
From: Russ Massey <russ@wriding.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] More B7 game stats
Message-ID: <Kib2ZcAg3U02EwjD@wriding.demon.co.uk>
I've turned up my original notes for the missing characters, so here
are the missing members.
AVON
Points 243
Strength 12
Dexterity 14
Intelligence 17
Health 13
Advantages:
Attractive
Alertness (1 level)
Charisma (1 level)
Voice
Strong Will (2 levels)
Disadvantages:
Stubbornness
Odious Personal Habit (Abrasive arrogance)
Skills:
Computer Programming 18
Electronics (Computers) 18
Electronics Operation (Computers) 17
Engineer (Electrical) 16
Electronics (Sensors) 15
Electronics (Force Shields) 15
Electronics (Teleport) 15
Economics 15
Mathematics 15
Physics 15
Savoire-Faire (Alpha) 15 (default level)
Accounting 14
Beam Weapons (Blaster) 15
Brawling 13
Stealth 13 (he's always sneaking around the ship and eavesdropping -
this should probably be another odious personal habit :))
Broadsword 12
Sex Appeal 12 (default skill level)
Holdout 12 (default skill level) - remember the lockpicks in his boot?
TARRANT
Strength 13
Dexterity 14
Intelligence 13
Health 14
Advantages:
Handsome
Charisma (2 levels)
Disadvantages:
Chivalric Code of Honour
Overconfidence
Sense of Duty to Friends and Crew
Skills:
Free Fall 12
Beam Weapons (Blasters) 16
Brawling 14
Astrogation 14
Astronomy 11
Acting 11 (as seen in his first appearance)
Leadership 14
Savoire-Faire (Military) 13
Sex Appeal 13
Strategy 13
Tactics 13
Piloting (Large Craft) 16
Administration 11
Merchant 11
DAYNA
Strength 12
Dexterity 16
Intelligence 12
Health 14
Advantages:
Beautiful
Animal Empathy
Acute Vision (1 level)
Disadvantages:
Bloodlust
Impulsiveness
Oath: Kill Servalan
Overconfidence
Sense of Duty to Friends and Companions
Skills:
Musical Instrument (Lyre) 11
Singing 14
Acrobatics 14
Swimming 15 {Well it seems pretty likely given her Sarran seashore
upbringing)
Throwing 13
Beam Weapons 16
Bow 15
Guns 16
Judo 13
Knife 15
Armoury (Beam Weapons) 15
Armoury (Gunpowder Weapons) 15
Spear 14
Shortsword 14
Tracking 11
Navigation 9
Electronics Operations (Weaponry) 13
Mathematics 12 (A necessary requirement for other skills)
Tactics 9
Holdout 10 (all those remarkably concealed devices)
Stealth 14
Demolitions 11
SOOLIN
Strength 11
Dexterity 17
Intelligence 14
Health 12
Advantages:
Beautiful
Combat Reflexes
Disadvantages:
Sense of Duty to Friends and Companions
Skills:
Running 11 (I've no idea where I originally got this from!)
Beam Weapons (Pistol) 21
Guns (Pistol) 21
Brawling 16
Fast Draw (Pistol) 18
Fast Draw (Magazine) 18
Armoury (Guns) 13 (default level)
Survival (Woodlands) 14 (her youth on GP)
Computer Operations 13
Law 11
Agronomy 12 (From her upbringing)
Criminology 10 (default level)
Acting 14
Stealth 12 (Default)
Streetwise 14
Pilot (Large Craft) 7 (default)
Merchant 13
--
Russ Massey
Sirius Games, 161 Montague Street, Worthing,
West Sussex BN11 3BZ
(01903 217334)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 04:37:55 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] B7 and Shakespeare
Message-ID: <36D14FA2.307FDCEF@ptinet.net>
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Afenech wrote:
> Paul Darrow used to say the role he'd most like to do is 'Coriolanus' and
> it's a roel I'd love to see him play.
You are all making me quite wish that we were all quite rich and could
bankroll a production company for the express purpose of producing
Shakespeare's plays using B7 stars and guests in all the roles. <sigh>.
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:25:59 +0000
From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@MCR1.poptel.org.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re:corgi liberator
Message-ID: <36D14CD6.B11E117A@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
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Penny said: "He didn't care for her outfitting the interior all red shag
carpetting
and bongo-balls either, as I recall. Picky picky."
And as for the fluffy dice hanging in front of the view screen...
--
cheers
Steve Rogerson
Redemption 99: The Blakes 7 and Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Ashford, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
"Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell"
Star Wars
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 05:21:56 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats
Message-ID: <36D159F3.A963A653@ptinet.net>
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Russ Massey wrote:
> AVON
> Points 243
>
> Strength 12
> Dexterity 14
> Intelligence 17
> Health 13
>
> SOOLIN
> Strength 11
> Dexterity 17
> Intelligence 14
> Health 12
No, no, no <grin>. I realize these are established scores for the games,
but I really must protest. Soolin genuinely deserves a 16 intelligence
(and perhaps a 12 strength, but that's too iffy to argue). She's *very*
nearly as smart as Avon. It's true that she appears to think holistically
(women usually do) whereas he clearly thinks in a linear fashion (men
usually do), but those are stylistic differences, not quantitative ones.
If you're using the term intelligence strictly as a measure of I.Q., I
might forgive you <g>, because Avon obviously has the edge there, *but*
Soolin has far more savvy, and frequently catches things that his linear
approach misses (Assassin, Warlord). And, IMHO, she could think rings
around the rest of our heroes, with the probable exception of Blake.
Soolin's a wonderful character, and I'd love to have half her brains (not
to mention looks).
I notice you rather cleverly avoided giving Avon an acting score :D
I resist the temptation to make a point-by-point comparison between Avon
and Tarrant. Apples and oranges, really. Or pomegranates and lemons? (Just
kidding, Tarrant Nostra.)
A pity I've seemed to have missed the other scores. I'd have loved to see
them, particularly Jenna, Vila and Blake.
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:30:44 +0000 (GMT)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Too much caffeine
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.990222130125.22594A-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 20 Feb 1999 mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
> Oops! I accidentally sent this to Nina instead of the list. Sorry, Nina. I humbly
> apologize. But I still need an astrophysicist.
You called?
> >
> > I seem to recall that they called the thing in Breakdown a 'gravity well' and a
> > 'gravity spiral' -- I don't recall it being called a black hole. Is a 'gravity
> > well' the same as a black hole? Is there even such a thing? Quick, who's got an
> > astrophysicist in his pocket?
> >
> > > Maybe the secret is in the application of silly special effects? Or maybe
> > > someone had just gotten a REALLY BIG blow dryer and wanted to try it out?
> >
The latter explanation does seem the most astrophysically reasonable.
However, let's have a go of making some sense out of what less hardy
theorists might dismiss as a bunch of hastily-written filler to pad out
yet another woefully-underrunning Nation script.
The object is described as a gravitational vortex, and can lead to the
destruction of inadequately-navigated spacecraft. It is localised and has
low luminosity (otherwise it wouldn't have been such a surprise). It
exhibits unstable magnetic fields, which are strong enough to
significantly affect spacecraft. It is red and swirly ("Swirly thing
alert!").
My guess is a massive, highly magnetised compact object, along the lines
of a neutron star but perhaps made of more exotic matter than boring old
neutrons. It is rapidly rotating and accreting matter from its
surroundings (a dense interstellar cloud) at a slow rate. (The accretion
rate is slow enough that the accreting material does not get too hot: its
temperature is about 3000K, giving a dull red glow).
It's hard to reconcile the low temperature with such a strong
gravitational field that the Liberator might be destroyed by tidal forces.
Instead, let's try an intense magnetic field. If the intersellar cloud has
an incredibly strong magnetic field which is roughly oppositely directed
to that of the compact object we get an interesting model. There will be a
magnetopause, where the oppositely directed fields meet. The gas will
diffuse very slowly across the magnetopause, limiting the accretion rate
and hence limiting the temperature increase. Where the fields meet,
intermittent magnetic reconnection will take place: the fields join
together and twang apart like stretched elastic bands, opening holes in
the magnetopause and accelerating particles to high energies. This process
will also involve considerable magnetohydrodynamic turbulence.
What with reconnection, turbulence and extremely large field strengths,
this magnetopause would be a pretty dicey region to fly through. It would
be best avoided, but could be negotiated with skilful piloting. It would
at first glance appear to be just an ordinary accretion disk (or
"gravitational vortex" as Blake puts it).
In the event, they just fly straight through the center. This isn't such a
bad move. They cut down their exposure to the worst of the turbulence to
two short periods (entering then leaving the magnetosphere), and are lucky
enough that those two brief crossings are not too disastrous.
Iain
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End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #72
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