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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 99 : Issue 35

Today's Topics:
	 Re: [B7L] Relationships
	 [B7L] Trolling, trolling, trolling.....
	 Re: [B7L] Relationships (was Morrigan)
	 Re:[B7L] bringing up children
	 Re:[B7L]Stupesud
	 Re: [B7L] sloganeering
	 Re:[B7L]Social engineering
	 [B7L] Redempton and Wales
	 Re: [B7L] Renaissance
	 [B7L] zine flyers
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	 Re: [B7L] Social engineering
	 Re: [B7L] sloganeering
	 Re: [B7L] Re: African explorers
	 Re: [B7L] Renaissance
	 Re: [B7L] B7 characters and dustbin lids
	 Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7
	 Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7
	 Re: [B7L] Social engineering
	 [B7L] This will be fun-- Blake's 7 and Discworld!
	 Re: [B7L] Call to Arms!
	 Re: [B7L] This will be fun-- Blake's 7 and Discworld!
	 Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7
	 Re: [B7L] Re: African explorers
	 Re: [B7L] Power - on topic

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:30:29 +1000
From: vera@c031.aone.net.au
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Relationships
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990118233029.00861c80@mail01.mel.aone.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Of the men, the only one I'd want as a friend is Vila - can't have too many
clever drinking companions!

Pat Patera wrote:
>Jenna: Don't expect dinner and dishes from her! And you'd better not
>have a possessive bone in your body.

Way impressive at a retro party if you had Jenna by your side. Sheer
thinking woman's cheesecake, great hair and lots of cleavage. 

>Cally: I'd get bored with her real quick. And you'd better not try to
>hide any secret affairs!

Ah yes, but think of all the candlelit dinners and walks on the beach you'd
get. Just joshing. Cally has a purpose and a longing for what she's lost.
She wouldn't be a comfortable person to know closely.  

>Dayna: 

Baby dyke. Butch baby dyke. Hubba.

>Soolin: <snip>
>time, in the end, you would probably wind up a victim of domestic
>violence.

I wonder if Soolin is too pragmatic for that now. She did violent revenge.
No, I think she'd just leave. With all the money. 

>Servalan: hahahahahahahahaha. You'd be dead in a week. (But *what* a
>week!)

Not if you made yourself useful, I'm sure. <g> And how pleasant it could
be, being useful... to Servalan. 

>Tyce Sarkoff is not a main character, but would make the best spouse
>material: steady, strong, practical, beautiful, loyal to family, well
>connected. And stands to inherit a bundle!

The only Martha in a show full of Marys? Have I got that the right way round? 

Malissa

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:48:55 +0100
From: "Nelly Meijerink" <nmeyrink@bart.nl>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Trolling, trolling, trolling.....
Message-Id: <199901181348.OAA09972@Njord.bart.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Well, like most sensible people on this lyst, I thought it best to stay out
of this *discussion* (like I stay out of most everything that's being said here, 
in accordance with my *natural* state of lurker) but after reading this morning's 
posts I finally got so angry and upset that I nearly decided to unsub from
the lyst <sigh>. Fortunately I had to go to my Mondaymorning yoga lesson,
and it is remarkable how 2 hours of yoga can 'clear ze mind and revitalize
ze body'. I'm in perfect balance again :)))))


Now, on to what SupeStud00@aol.com threw up:

> I haven't been impolite to any member of this list,

Yes you have.

> man or woman and I intend to continue to respect all posters' opinions.

You haven't yet shown any respect at all.

> I haven't ridiculed any individual and have no plans to.

You have done nothing else but ridicule the whole of humanity so far.

> I also don't use profanity, in either my personal or public life.

Interesting...... (?)

> I do have very strong opinions in many areas, one of which is the gender 
> role issue in society. It seems that anyone with a strong opposing opinion 
> on this list is seen as automatically sarcastic or someone not to be trusted.

Nope, that's not true at all.

> I have given you no reason to not trust me. 

Plenty, plenty, plenty of reason!

> I have been honest from the first post, 

You have been blatantly blunt, disrespectful, hurtful and galling and that
has absolutely nothing to do with honesty.
  
> or perhaps you prefer someone who smiles at you
> and then stabs you in the back as soon as you turn your back. 

Nope, I prefer to stay out of the way of people carrying knives.

> All future posts, should I be allowed to post here in the future, will be B7 
> related by me. 

Well thank goodness, for none of them have been up till now.... You've
only used Blake's 7 as a vehicle to ventilate your opinions on the *gender 
role issue*. If you're so desperate for people to know them, go to the Spin 
list will you please?
   
> If you guys continue to choose to insult someone because you don't
> understand them, 

You're as clear as crystal to me. Neanderthalers are not hard to fathom.

> that's fine, do so, but do it in private.

You haven't done that yourself, have you?

> If you wish to insult me, my email address is open,

No, no wish to at all.

> but I come here because I'm a B7 fan, and there are so few of us

Oooops, sorry ??? There are thousands of us mate, we're all over the place!

> that I welcomed the chance to consort with other likeminded individuals

Forget the *likeminded*!

> at least likeminded in their appreciation of B7. 

Appreciation of Blake's 7 yes, not of your obtrusive posts.

> I don't think its fair to the others here for you, or anyone else, to continue
> to hurl insults. 

You should have thought of that before you started insulting people 
yourself. I guess you're well aware by now that you have kicked a
lot of people in the shins and created a stinking atmosphere here. 

> If you wish to discuss this further, you know how to reach me...

No, thanks, I've said what I wanted to say, and prefer to say it on the lyst.



Nelly "shit is shit, whatever way you look at it" Meijerink

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
'One thing is for sure, a sheep is not a creature of the air' 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 05:48:50 PST
From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Relationships (was Morrigan)
Message-ID: <19990118134850.14063.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain

Avona/Pat:

>> Blake is too patricarchal. He may not be sexist; he bosses everyone
>> equally. But he bosses.
>
>Right. Not Blake, but because he's an emotional mess. I haven't the
>patience for reconstructive hand holding.


There's a difference between having a traumatic history and being an 
emotional mess.  As Judith pointed out, though he's been to Hell and 
back, Blake has been forced to face the darker side of reality, and the 
darker side of his own nature.  He's come out of it with a degree of 
maturity and self-sufficiency that Avon, for example, clearly lacks.  I 
can't really see where reconstructive hand-holding would come into it.


>> Avon-- I fear not. I like being needed. He doesn't need anyone, or 
>>likes  to act like he doesn't.


"Likes to act like he doesn't" is more accurate.  He needed Blake 
desperately in "Terminal" and "Blake"; in "Rumours", he needed what he 
couldn't have -- Anna -- and so set out to claim the next best thing, 
which was vengeance.


>What do the men think of the Blake's 7 gals?
>
>Jenna: Don't expect dinner and dishes from her! And you'd better not
>have a possessive bone in your body.


Don't expect anything interesting to come out of her mouth, either.  She 
was good at witty put-downs -- I'll give her that -- but I find it very 
difficult to be attracted to someone with an almost permanent scowl on 
their face -- someone who seems to be saying, "Look at me I'm the most 
serious person in the World I've got an O level in geography."  Bad 
chemistry, I suppose.


>Cally: I'd get bored with her real quick. And you'd better not try to
>hide any secret affairs!


Again, are we talking about Cally 1 or Cally 2 here?  Cally 1 really 
does seem quite fun, if a tad dangerous.


>Dayna: As with Vila, I'd dearly want her for a friend. We would have
>such fun hunting Sarrans in the hills! But not for a spouse: she'd be
>off with the first truck driver who offered a new adventure.


Technically skilled, but lacking a certain intellectual curiosity, I 
think.  Oddly, she seems to be one of the most supportive of the group.  
I'm impressed by the fact, in "Blake", that while she's getting at Vila, 
she is attending to his injury.  Soolin wouldn't have made the time or 
the effort.  There are numerous other examples in the series where she 
was the first one to offer support where it was needed.  Good quality 
for a parent, that.


>Soolin: Oddly, I think she'd be a good spouse: dependable,
>even-tempered, lucrative employability skills (personal bodyguard to
>some rich bloke), intelligence, looks to die for.


Oh, go on.  Twist my arm.  :-)


>Servalan: hahahahahahahahaha. You'd be dead in a week. (But *what* a
>week!)


Do you know, I think I'd take that risk.  It'd be well worth it in my 
book.


>Tyce Sarkoff is not a main character, but would make the best spouse
>material: steady, strong, practical, beautiful, loyal to family, well
>connected. And stands to inherit a bundle!


Yes, but how often would I have to go round and see her loopy old man? 


-- Rob




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:35:05 -0000
From: "Julie Horner" <julie.horner@lincolnsoftware.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re:[B7L] bringing up children
Message-ID: <01be42ef$bdb2ef30$170201c0@pc23.Fishnet>
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Ann said,

>>Avon: forget it. He wouldn't know one end of a child from the other. 
>Don't be so sure. 

Leave it with him for a few hours and it would leave him in no doubt
of the correct orientation.

Rob suggested Servalan would make a good parent. I agree with 
that for when the child gets to an age of reason, i.e. with an older
child, but I would have thought her style would be to leave the
offspring entirely in the care of trained child minders or some
such until it was about eleven or twelve. 

Obviously she would delegate the messy bits and the
tedious day to day bits (and who can blame her) but I
can't even see her taking very much interest in its development
much before adolescence. Suppose the unfortunate toddler
was brought out for inspection every week or so - like
the Victorian upper classes viewed their offspring.
She would be bored
rigid by childishly lisped versions of "Twinkle, twinkle little star"
and I can imagine her being a bit waspish about the unidentifiable
sticky bits that transferred themselves to her gown after the obligatory
hug with Mama.

Consequently by the time she did want to take an active
interest in the upbringing of young Servie, she might have lost
the chance to have any useful rapport. At least, I imagine that
is how it works - I haven't really got to the role model bit yet as I am
still stuck at the peering anxiously at interesting stains stage.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:11:28 -0000
From: "Julie Horner" <julie.horner@lincolnsoftware.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re:[B7L]Stupesud
Message-ID: <01be430d$f7dbb700$170201c0@pc23.Fishnet>
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Supestud said:

>Well, there can be no healthy debate with this attitude.....I welcome
debate
>and discussion with anyone who wishes to disagree with me and can defend
their
>position. And I am grateful for being allowed to post to the list.

You mean those posts were meant to be taken SERIOUSLY?

Honestly, until now I had assumed that these views were done
tongue in cheek to deliberately wind up anyone on the list
prepared to rise to the bait - and that list members responding
to them were being a bit over sensitive. But now you say
you really, truly meant all that stuff......

Maybe I have been lucky but the only person I have ever
known who seriously held views comparable with yours
was born in about 1920, led a very sheltered life and
had never read anything other than "The Daily Telegraph"
and "Black Beauty"  (No I don't know why Black Beauty).


Julie Horner

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:16:01 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] sloganeering
Message-ID: <nn3dvJAB3uo2Ewn7@jajones.demon.co.uk>

In message <19990118053306.21949.qmail@hotmail.com>, Joanne MacQueen
<j_macqueen@hotmail.com> writes
>>Which naturally, leads me to:
>>Avon: the other white meat
>>Pat P
>
><choke> You comparing him to pork?
>
Hacing a truly filthy mind, there is only one way I can interpret you
choking on Avon pork...
-- 
Julia Jones
"That's why I have my techie-sex-slave who supplies me with lots of
hardware."          Sylvia Spruck Wrigley, demon.local

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:28:22 -0000
From: "Julie Horner" <julie.horner@lincolnsoftware.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re:[B7L]Social engineering
Message-ID: <01be4310$547082f0$170201c0@pc23.Fishnet>
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Sarah T said

>The small hint that occurs, I think, in the canon is when Bayban makes a
>remark about Blake, something to the effect that "I was on the wanted list
>before he crawled out of his creche." If we assume that Bayban didn't
>actually know anything about Blake's personal history and was just assuming
>the most likely sort of background for him, and that "creche" in context
>means something like child-care center, that does rather suggest that a
>communal arrangement was standard.
>People in B7 do still know who their parents and siblings are; presumably
>they would visit them at holidays. I would imagine the "creche" as being
>something like a boarding school, but starting at birth,

I think you are probably reading a bit much in to the word creche.
Lots of people put their kids in a creche while they are at work but
still pick them up every night and in no sense "board" them out in
this sense.

I think these days it is usually called day care but maybe in 1980-ish
when this episode was written the term creche was more common.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:10:32 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
cc: Space City <Space-city@world.std.com>
Subject: [B7L] Redempton and Wales
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0118111032-bbaRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

Enough people expressed an interest in going to Wales after Redemption to make
it worth doing, so here's the basic details.

Monday night is Guards Guards in Swansea.  Tickets 14.50 pounds.  Accomodation
18.50 for an en suite single (other options available - contact Judith for
details).  We'll be at the ael-y-bryn geusthouse.  phone 01792 466707  (You can
either book youself in or get me to do it for you if you live overseas)

Tuesday night is Hosts of Rebecca in Cardiff.  Tickets are 16 pounds. 
Accomodation single en suite 25 pounds (other options are available)  We're
staying at Preste Gaarden hotel phone 01222 374805 (again, I'm happy to do the
booking for overseas fans)

(cheaper tickets are available in both cases, but I assumed people would want
good seats if they're travelling that far)  (I've gone for lower priced
accomodation a bit out of the city centre as it makes a massive saving in the
overnight price and it's walkable if you're keen, or a taxi fare is only about 2
pounds)

There are rail and coach services to Swansea and connections between Swansea and
Cardiff.  I'll be looking into the possibility of car shares, but as we'll all
be going different ways home afterwards, there's not much point in me organising
group transport.

Please contact me to reserve your theatre ticket.  I've booked seats in a block.

Judith
-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7

Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention  
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:23:26 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Renaissance
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0118072326-0b0Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

On Sun 17 Jan, Lisa Williams wrote:
> Judith Proctor wrote:
> 
> >Avon is Leonardo da Vinci and Vila is a pupil of Leonardo's. 
> 
> Salai, I assume? 
> 
> (Quote from one of Leonardo's notebooks: "Salai steals money.")

Correct!  I didn't name him because I wasn't sure people would recognise the
name, but I obviously underestimated kowledge of the period.  He's given a
different name, but he was indeed based on Salai.

Judith

-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7

Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention  
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:20:05 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
cc: Space City <Space-city@world.std.com>
Subject: [B7L] zine flyers
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0118172005-480Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

I'll be printing two new zines fairly soon.  If anyone wants to send me paper
copies of their zine flyers, I'll pop them in the back.  (has to be a paper
copy - I can't take Word files)

Judith
-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7

Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention  
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------



------------------------------



------------------------------









------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:26:32 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Social engineering
Message-ID: <01d501be433c$45838ae0$fd1cac3e@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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>Ah, someone needs to do an actual count of how many women there were in
>positions of power (and how many men, to get the ratio). I remember reading
>(a long time ago) that people tend to overestimate the numbers of women in
a
>group. That is, if, say, 35% of a group is female, people tend to perceive
>it as 50%. I'm not saying that this is what's actually contributing to our
>different impressions, just that it's a possibility.

I'm not going to conduct any actual counts, but I think Ian's right, we
perceive women as being more significantly represented than they actually
are.  If we take just politicos, then we have Servalan and LeGrand (two
women) compared to Rontane, Bercol, Joban, Practor, Chesku and a male
pre-War president (Avon used the male pronoun in Shadow) - six men.

Of course such a small sample can hardly be considered representative, just
tentatively indicative.


>Also, I see the Federation as a very militaristic society (Parr's remark in
>Trial that Space Command runs the Federation.) Apart from Servalan and
>Thania, the only women in the military that I can recall were all mutoids.
>If being in the military is an important avenue for power, the lack of
women
>in the military does make it more difficult for women in general to achieve
>power.


Neil

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:41:53 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] sloganeering
Message-ID: <01d601be433c$46561d20$fd1cac3e@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Malissa asked:

>Speaking of which - do you lads not like our Avon? Or have no reasons to
>like him? Or are bored with talking about him? (Oh, say it ain't so!) Or
>are tentative about professing an opinion? Friend? Hero? Idiot?
>Inspiration? Strong or merely brittle?

I tend to stay out of character-oriented discussions because they have a
habit of being directionless.  There's nothing intrinsically wrong with this
communal pooling of impressions and reflections, but it rarely seems to
reach any definite conclusions, or even defined areas of disagreement.  It
also lacks the theoretical basis that my structurally-oriented mind prefers,
but I guess that's just my loss.

So I'd rather sit back and let those who enjoy it have their fun, and have
mine in my own way.

Neil the Patronising Slug

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:42:25 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: African explorers
Message-ID: <01d701be433c$470d3820$fd1cac3e@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Edith Spencer wrote:

>   At first I was kinda worried about ya, Neil; after all, the freedom
>the explorers experienced was that of not being in their own society.
>The varied Arabian and africans society had their own rules; they<Burton
>et al> just were not aware of them.

>  But then Neil showed he was on the game:

Oi!  I'm not that strapped for cash...


The freedom the explorers felt was a freedom from a rigid, binding,
all-pervading social infrastructure that was becoming increasingly
bureaucratised and codified.  Certainly the African societies had rules,
social structures, codes of behaviour etc, and the explorers were not
entirely unaware of them.  But with such a low level of technological
development and so much of the land in a natural state (virgin forest/scrub
etc), the Europeans could do largely as they pleased.  They could bag game
with impunity, for example, without having to join a gentleman's club, curry
favour with estate owners, follow dress codes, exhibit their flair for
pointless small talk over sherry etc.  The African people were part and
parcel of the Dark Continent, another obstacle to negotiate, another hazard
to risk.  Although the explorers frequently had to submit to the rule of the
various chiefs (paying tribute for passage, enduring protracted periods of
enforced 'hospitality' etc), they did not live as Africans in the same way
an African of the time visiting Europe would have to live as a European.

To requote:
>they<Burton et al> just were not aware of them.

Burton, for all his faults (blatant racism among them), was a dedicated
anthropologist, ethnologist and linguist, who at least took the trouble to
understand the people he travelled among (even if he did allow his findings
to endorse his theories of white supremacism).  He was, after all, the man
who successfully passed himself off as a Muslim to visit Mecca.  He once had
to forcibly dissuade the far less sensitive Speke (the Unspekeable) from
killing a pig for dinner, so as not to alienate the expedition's Muslim
porters.

I know this is all a bit removed from B7, but science fiction is by nature
explorative.  I think there are some comparisons to be drawn between the
attitudes and behaviour of the European explorers and the way exploration of
the galaxy is presented in SF.  The recurrence of (technologically)
primitive tribal societies is one such aspect - B7 gives us the Cephlonians,
Goths, Sarrans and Hommiks, for example, and none of them are accorded much
in the way of respect by the scripts.  The noble civilised space-farers
exercise a self-appointed mandate to trample all over them, and still be the
good guys.  (But when ultra-developed aliens come and do it to _us_, they
somehow seem to end up as the bad guys.  Funny, that.)

Neil

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:17:59 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Renaissance
Message-ID: <19990119001800.4058.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain

Judith said:
>It's an alternative universe story written by Diane Holland.  The 
>characters are cast into historical roles in Renaissance Italy.  Blake 
is >cast as Machiavelli (note that a lot of Machiavelli's bad reputation 
>was created by his enemies). 

Reminds me of "Pasquale's Angel". Blake would've got on quite well with 
the Machiavelli depicted in that book - both are determined to 
investigate to find the truth behind the smokescreens of the State.

>Avon is Leonardo da Vinci and Vila is a pupil of Leonardo's. 

But any comparison falls over now - the da Vinci of MacAuley's novel 
would be Ensor, and I can't see Vila being interested in being anyone's 
catamite, forgetting slash for the moment. Avon would be an artificer, 
if I'm being honest and not succumbing to the temptation to make him one 
of the artists - he might possibly enjoy the lifestyle of the book's 
Michaelangelo or Raphael, or maybe he'd just enjoy the money! 

Dayna would be the Amerindian girl Pasquale fancies. Given Pasquale's 
youth, he'd have to be Tarrant (that'll please Carol - equating him with 
the young and handsome hero of the story), but a spacecraft pilot and a 
young man who dreams of painting an angel, and has only got as far as 
the wings, compare only vaguely at best.

There are plenty of candidates for comparison to Servalan, and if I had 
the book with me, I'd be able to choose the most likely.

>It's like no other Blake's 7 story I've ever read. 

It sounds really good, certainly. I'll have to add it to the list of 
things I want, although when I'll get around to buying them, I've no 
idea.

Regards
Joanne
(this is so much more interesting than indexing charts of compensation 
awarded in torts cases)


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:11:46 +0000
From: Richard Watts <Richard.Watts@cl.cam.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] B7 characters and dustbin lids
Message-Id: <E102Phq-0004Dm-00@canada.cl.cam.ac.uk>

On Fri 15 January 1999, Helen Krummenacker
<avona@jps.net> wrote:

[snip]
>Tarrant, would, I think, quite likely make a good father. This does NOT
>mean I am joining the Tarrant Nostra.

 Yes, but on the other hand, he'd only bring up lots of little Tarrants,
and there there'd be nothing for it but the flamethrower...


Richard.
[ Murphy's laws of combat #<somethingorother>: Never share a foxhole
with anyone braver than you are ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:47:03 +0000
From: Richard Watts <Richard.Watts@cl.cam.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7
Message-Id: <E102QFz-0004EH-00@canada.cl.cam.ac.uk>

On Mon 18 January 1999, Pat Patera
<pussnboots@geocities.com> wrote:

>Richard Watts wrote:
>
>>  Well, judging by the subject matter, endless plot repetition, and
>> prose style, I'm afraid you may be right :-).
>I assume you are referring to SuperSuds here. 

 Nope: to John Norman being God, actually :-). The more I think about
it, the more parallels I see between the Gor books (or, the ones I've
read, anyway) and the Bible. I think I shall stop thinking about this.
I think I shall stop thinking about this _now_.

[snip]
>level of intelligence. But, being a pop psychology hobbyist, I am
>endlessly fascinated by people of all types. I expect few have troubled
>to read the aol. profile SS offered:

 Are AOL profiles available to the Big Bad World ? (his post implied
they weren't, but I must admit I haven't looked..). 

> it says he's 30 years old,
>studmuffin, etc., hahahahaha typical macho profile commonly made up by a
>14 year old boy. And, can't you tell by the often disjointed writing
>style that SS is a kid, playing comic book hero? Aren't you amused?

 Yup :-), though I think his USENET postings are far more amusing -
look his email address up on Dejanews sometime :-).

[snip]
>corner bar, but then, pre-internet, we didn't have the chance. Can't you
>just see young Vila engaging in just such hijinks? 

 Actually, no: I don't think it's really Vila's scene. Avon, perhaps
(but then, if it were Avon, I would no longer have an internet
connection with which to make this accusation :-)).

>As far as the
>fixiation on mothers staying home, perhaps he was abandoned young. I
>consider this an insight into a unique person who is differnt from me.

 I agree. Much as his opinions appear to be flamebait, he does actually
seem to be genuine, so he's either playing a _very_ obtuse practical
joke, or he's for real. In either case, I don't think he deserves some
of the abuse he's been getting (as opposed to his arguments, which 
richly deserve it because, quite frankly, they're crap).

[snip]
>> ><< To achieve their dream society, they not only have to
>> > ensure that all mothers stay at home with the kids, they have to ensure
>> > that poor nurturers don't breed at all 
>As birth control becomes more widely available, the poor nurturers (like
>me) should have already bred themselves out of society by that time (I
>have).

 But if your theory is correct, this should've happened hundreds
(thousands ?) of years ago. I suspect non-nurturingness is a naturally
arising phenomenon: it may even be an adaptation to cope with your
siblings having large numbers of children (ie. the maternality gene
is either full-off or full-on, ensuring that there are enough single
women to take care of the children borne by the women who have
astronomical numbers of kids), in which case it'll only breed out
where the number of children per woman is strictly controlled.

 I wonder what happens in China ?

 OTOH, there is a simple mouse gene for nurturing, so I wonder if
there's a simple human gene for it ?

[I've snipped the bits I agree with :-)]

 My own solution to this whole tangled problem is to teach: you don't
get to see the little brats (erm, lovable darlings, sorry) until
they're 18, the admissions process weeds out the no-hopers, and you
get shot of the ones that made it past admissions after a year or
three :-). Oh, and then you can recruit them to help you break the
federation banking system....


Richard.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 01:58:25 +0000
From: Richard Watts <Richard.Watts@cl.cam.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7
Message-Id: <E102QQz-0004EO-00@canada.cl.cam.ac.uk>

On Sun 17 January 1999, SupeStud00@aol.com
<SupeStud00@aol.com> wrote:

>In a message dated 1/17/99 1:01:24 PM EST, Richard.Watts@cl.cam.ac.uk writes:
>
[snip]
> >Make them nurturing through some unknown process or eliminate them....the
> >Federation appears to be quite capable of both....brainwashing and
> >ruthlessness.
> 
><<  I think we're descending into the realms of `there's no evidence for
> this in the series at all,>>
>
>I never proposed there was, I was simply suggesting the Feds are capable.
>And, there's actually not much evidence against it.  We don't find out many
>detils about the fedeartion along the course of the series.

 True, but if they were doing nasty things to women's fertility, I
would've expected some of the female rebels to be rather strongly
opposed to it (though there is of course the counterargument that
they couldn't be too strongly opposed at 7pm on a Monday).

[snip]
><<  I'm still not sure the Federation would get away with it though -
> historically, tamper with practically anything else, and you'll get
> little resistance. Tamper with someone's family, and they'll happily
> charge a combat-ready mechanized infantry division armed only with a
> small fruit knife.>>
>
>They did get away with drugging entire populations.

 `practically anything'. Modern Governments get away with drugging
entire populations (Florine, Chlorine, vitamin additives in bread).

[snip]
> << Anyway, if the Federation has eliminated all dysfunctional families,
> how do you explain practically all the characters in B7 ?
>
>
>Good question.  They were all crminals.  Perhaps there are some forms of
>genetic tampering that the Federation hasn't perfected? 

 You can say that again :-)). Recall, for example, that Blake's alleged
crime in The Way Back wasn't considered sufficiently out of the ordinary 
for there to be a major outcry about it.

[snip]
>We only saw the Federation through the crew's eyes.  We don't really know if
>there was civil unrest among the general population.  It could go either way.

 True. Again, I'd've expected Blake to have enthused about it rather
more if there had been (and for Sarkoff to have been more militant). I
think we may have to agree to differ, since I can't think of any
rational reason why you should agree with me :-(.

> << If they were messing about with people's families in a general way
> (rather than as experiments on specific worlds, and in fact even then),
> I would expect someone to have mentioned it. >>
>
>You have a good point, but lets just go on speculation for the sake of the
>argument.

 OK. It certainly sounds like a good basis for fanfic (indeed, I believe
it has been in the past for general SF, multiple times...).

>
>Thanks for the discussion and for not resdorting to name calling. 

 You're welcome :-). Thanks for the response :-).

> What did
>you think of my analysis of "Power"?

 I more or less agree with Louise, though I think Avon probably did
get rather more satisfaction from shooting Pella than he would from
shooting (eg.) one of the Homiks (sp?). Then again, this may well
have been simply because Pella presented an intellectual challenge,
which Avon was rather proud to have seen off, rather than a purely
physical one which he never seemed to have much time for (hence,
presumably, his attraction to Servalan).

 Then again, Avon is a terribly good approximation to a lump of
Sopron, especially for CompScis .. :-).


Richard.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:57:39 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: B7 <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Social engineering
Message-ID: <36A3F4A4.28A3@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Iain Coleman wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Taina Nieminen wrote:
> 
> > I've always thought that the Federation was a very patriarchal society, in
> > which it was difficult, but not impossible, for women to achieve positions
> > of high power. The only powerful women who come to mind right now are
> > Servalan, and Governor Le Grand in Voice from the Past.
> 
> I always had the opposite impression. There are a fair few women in
> positions of power and responsibility, and no-one ever remarks upon the
> fact. This implies that it is an accepted fact of life. (I'm ignoring
> Jarvik, just because.) Funny how we managed to get such different
> impressions from the same series.
> 
> Iain
>
 My impression is somewhere in between-- like modern society. Women can
rise without any sort of formal opposition to their ambition. However,
most women are content to 'fit in' and 'get along', as opposed to
competing. Like it was accepted that the Liberator was Blake's ship,
because he saved the other two first-boarders from the security device.
But Jenna could have said. "Excuse me, I was the one the ship bonded
with, and I'm the one who's had plenty of deep space experience. I'll
make the decisions, you Earth-lubbers." She didn't. Maybe it's her
idealism, wanting to join Blake, but don't we think there's a little
social assumption that the man leads? Of course, she might just have
decided she doesn't want Avon to targer _her_ as the person to take the
ship from.

--Avona

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:00:32 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: B7 <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] This will be fun-- Blake's 7 and Discworld!
Message-ID: <36A40360.690B@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I was thinking about this. Paul Darrow, or course, has played Avon and
Captain Vimes. But if Avon was a Discworld charaacter, I would see him
as one of the young theoretical wizards who work with dangerous,
reality-altering theories.
ORAC has a bit in common with the Librarian (don't call him a computer;
he's a brain. Don't call the Librarian a monkey, he's an oragantang.)
But to me, ORAC as most like the Luggage. A box with exraordinary powers
and a lousy attitde.
Blake is a bit Captain Vimes-ish; neither trusted governmental power too
much, if I recall Vimes well. But he also is like Carrot, because
everyone wants to follow him.
My husband suggested Cally's counterpart would be Magrat.  agree. She
seems all mild, 'but sometimes, when cornered, a small furry animal
turns out to be a mongoose'.
Vila would be one of Nanny Ogg's brood. Drinks scrumpie, steals things,
and talks dirty.
Travis might be Nanny's cat, Greebo. Only interested in things if he can
eat them, have sex with them, or attack them. And in human form, the
swagger.
Any other analogies people might think of?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:09:14 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Call to Arms!
Message-ID: <36A4056B.9F6@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Pat Patera wrote:

> DELTAS OF THE WORLD UNITE!
> Throw off your soma sleep and stampede through the domes!
> Stand and sass Supreme Commander Servalan!
> Shout: we're not going to take it anymore!
> We want equal rights to work in politics, work in the military, work in
> ...
> 
> -- er, on second thought, we want another shot of soma, eh?
> 
> Pat P

Well, better than wading in blood up to your armpits.
To blazes with relying on people. I'll show Blake. I'll invent a gadget
that does revolutions. 
--Avona

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:41:56 PST
From: "Penny Dreadful" <pdreadful@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] This will be fun-- Blake's 7 and Discworld!
Message-ID: <19990119054157.24973.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain

Avona averred:

>But to me, ORAC as most like the Luggage. A box with exraordinary 
powers
>and a lousy attitde.

Perfect!

>Vila would be one of Nanny Ogg's brood.

I have always seen Rincewind as Vila. And vice versa.

>Travis might be Nanny's cat, Greebo. Only interested in things if he 
can
>eat them, have sex with them, or attack them.

Travis didn't actually seem much interested in eating things or having 
sex with them. Servalan would make a more fitting Greebo.

Also I always picture Brian Blessed in the role of Ridcully.

-- Penny "The Andromedan Can Never Be Buggered At All" Dreadful

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 20:55:27 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7
Message-ID: <36A4103F.1A90@geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Richard Watts wrote:

>  Are AOL profiles available to the Big Bad World ? (his post implied
> they weren't, but I must admit I haven't looked..).
I don't know: an aol friend read me the profile

poor nurturers:
> >should have already bred themselves out of society by that time

>  But if your theory is correct, this should've happened hundreds
> (thousands ?) of years ago.

No - I said post birth control. Before the pill and tubal ligation, a
woman had to hold a knife between her knees for a good 30 years to avoid
pregnancy: desired or not.

>  I wonder what happens in China ?
A society where men outnumber women 3:1. It will be interesting to watch
how the loose males cope. Probably violently *sigh*
 
>  OTOH, there is a simple mouse gene for nurturing, so I wonder if
> there's a simple human gene for it ?
A simple single gene? That's pretty scary: now I can envision a future
where designer genes are common and "baby makers" are genetically
engineered to "like" doing the work of bearing and raising multitudes of
babies!

Going full circle back to the original post that began all this bruhaha:
that the Federation would require women to devote themselves to
nurturing children who would grow up to be peaceable citizens:
How would the Federation re engineer society to preclude the occurance
of another cataclysm?

Considering that we hear of the service grades, who seem totally docile;
and that we hear of the military grades, who seem to have overly healthy
libidos (Travis, Jarvik, even Parr)
and that the Beta grade in Weapon seemed like a runaway truck and so
went haywire and bonkers, as if he were suffering testosterone
poisoning,
I postulate:

The Federation would induce a testosterone blocking agent into men (not
needed for women who already have extremely low levels of this hormone,
explaining why men brawl, box and war while women don't) to curb violent
and war like tendencies. Only fighters being bred (and then carefully
conditioned and controlled for obedience, like Parr) for the military
would be allowed to develop any.

Now: best of all: this explains the total lack of male interest in sex
on the Liberator and Scorpio!
It explains poor Jenna and Cally, quietly lusting after Blake and Avon -
who remain: oblivious *sigh*
Vila, of course, who has a healthy sex drive, obviously gets his
testosterone on the black market. oh! so *that's* what's in the soma
he's always guzzling!
It explains Dayna having to tell Tarrant: "C'mon kiss me! I can't be all
that repulsive!"
It explains Soolin not having to shoot the boy.
Pat P

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:01:56 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: African explorers
Message-ID: <36A411C4.1564@geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Neil Faulkner wrote:

> Goths, Sarrans and Hommiks, for example, and none of them are accorded much
> in the way of respect by the scripts.  The noble civilised space-farers
> exercise a self-appointed mandate to trample all over them, and still be the
> good guys. 

Dayna hunting Sarrans is a great analogy to the colonists hunting tigers
in Africa. Just assumed it was their right. And how could the primitves
protest? Spears against elephant guns? No contest!

We never get to see Dayna hunting Hommiks on Xenon Base, but I have this
vision of her doing so. She would no doubt do it on the sly, rather like
poaching, as she'd know that Avon would not approve of her making the
natives restless. Perhaps that is why Gunther's widow vows to move the
whole tribe away? Well! She could hardly state the real reason now,
could she? That the men were all scared of a <choke, sputter> grrrrrl???

> (But when ultra-developed aliens come and do it to _us_, they
> somehow seem to end up as the bad guys.  Funny, that.)

I dread the day aliens find our broadcast signals and come to colonize
us!
Pat P

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:50:42 EST
From: SupeStud00@aol.com
To: alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Power - on topic
Message-ID: <e7e689ab.36a41d32@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 1/18/99 5:22:52 PM EST, alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk
writes:

<< 
 It seems that 'Power' does a similar thing. It is a male fantasy that women
 would be so horny that they would put up with living with that big ginger
 oaf (whatever his name is) and getting beaten up and losing their
 technology, just for the chance of having sex. I imagine a certain kind of
 man seeing just this much desperation for sex in himself, and then sort of
 projecting this desperation onto the women he desires.>>

I think its a good argument.....and I think many people, whether they admit it
or not, make sacrifices for sex to different degrees, as it is necessary and
vital to human fulfillment.  I think the women, and men, in Power, were faced
with the drastic circumstance of seeing their race die out, and so, sex became
even more important for them.  I have even read arguments that the women in
power are to be admired because the make the supreme sacrifice of their
freedom, so that the enitre race can go forward and thrive.
 
 <<There is one aspect of 'Power' though that I really really hate. It just
 pushes my most vulnerable button. That is when we find out that the men are
 killing all the little girls as soon as they are born. I just can't bear
 casual references to violence against children.>>

I didn't like this element of the story either.  I think it ties into the
social engineering discussion in that illustrates that a race need not be
advanced 9as with the Federation) to dabble in it.

<< And somehow the fact that this killing is incorporated into a sexual
fantasy just makes it seem so unpleasant.>>

I didn't see it as being incorporated into a sexual fantsay.....please explain
further.

 << I don't mind men fantasising that women would give up everything for sex.
 But the thought of Ben Steed (or anyone else) fantasising that women would
 allow their daughters to be killed, just for the chance of getting laid.
 Yuck. It really makes the episode unwatchable for me. >>

I saw them as allowing their daughters to be killed for the betterment of the
entire species....perhaps they knew there was no other option in dealing with
the men.  I feel the women in this episode have the right
idea....subservience, etc, but the men are not acting responsibly in honoring
the sacrifice made by the women.  As a result, they will fail.  In order for
the idea to work, both sexes have to pull their weight.

--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #35
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