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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 34
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Social engineering
RE: [B7L] The Woman in B7
Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon
Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon
Re: [B7L] Power/The Woman in B7
Re: [B7L] Avon disagrees
Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon
[B7L] Re: Sprechen Sie Deutsch?
Re: [B7L] Re: Sprechen Sie Deutsch?
[B7L] Now we know...
Re: [B7L] Social engineering
Re: [B7L] Now we know...
Re: [B7L] Social engineering
Re: [B7L] Social engineering
Re: [B7L] Trolling 101
Re: [B7L] Trolling 101
[B7L] Re: Social engineering
[B7L] Re: Women, B7 and Avon
[B7L] Responding to the Message
[B7L] Nuisance
Re: [B7L] sloganeering
Re: [B7L] Trolling 101
Fwd: The Men in Blake's 7 (was Re: [B7L] The Morrigan in B7)
Re: The Men in Blake's 7 (was Re: [B7L] The Morrigan in B7)
Re: [B7L] Re: Sprechen Sie Deutsch?
Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7
RE: [B7L] Nuisance
Re: [B7L] Nuisance
Re: [B7L] Social engineering
Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon
Re: [B7L] Social engineering
Re: [B7L] Nuisance
Re: [B7L] Nuisance
Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7
[B7L] Mutoids
Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon
Re: [B7L] Responding to the Message
Re: [B7L] Mutoids
Re: [B7L] sloganeering
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:51:38 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Social engineering
Message-ID: <36A25B6A.EA@geocities.com>
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s.thompson8@genie.com wrote:
Sarah, I like your take on the creche, aka
> ...hinted at in canonical B7: communal child-rearing by professionals.
> You can hardly get more sexually repressive than
> 19th-C. China, a country that physically crippled nearly half its population
> to keep them in their place;
This practice continued into the 20th century. My mother, a military
civilian (oxymoron?) all during WWII, was sent to the Pacific Theater
and China at the close of the war and among her "collected war stories"
were tales of unbinding the women's feet.
However, I doubt that half the population was crippled. In Victorian
England, only the rich ladies fainted from wearing tight corsets - while
the poor scullery maids and washerwomen wore loose shifts that enabled
them to physically toil all the long day. Yet, we think of all Victorian
women fainting. So too in China, the rich "kept women" were cripples,
but the huge majority of Chinese were always peasants, toiling in the
fields. The women were slogging about - big footed - in rice paddies all
the long day.
> The original referent of the expression "eminence grise" (which I may well have misspelled as I
> don't know French very well) was male, and this seems to be more or less the
> role Avon had in mind for himself when he went in search of Blake in "Blake."
But what does it mean? Rule thru grey? gristle? greasy?
Postulating Pat P
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:46:41 -0000
From: Louise Rutter <Louise.Rutter@btinternet.com>
To: "'B7 Lysator'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] The Woman in B7
Message-ID: <01BE426B.6291AA80@host5-171-251-95.btinternet.com>
SS wrote:
>What do you think of my analysis on "Power"?
I think your analysis of what Steed was trying to say was correct. I think
Steed was wrong. Not 100% wrong, of course, I don't think many people would
disagree that if all men fought all women, both sides would lose. But he
was wrong in the details of how men and women should interact.
I don't think that last exchange between Avon and Pella had anything to do
with sex at all - Avon would have shot anyone who tried to kill him, and
the fact that Pella was female was irrelevant. Pella accuses Avon of
shooting her because men are intrinsically violent; Avon simply points out
that if she resorts to the use of violence, she can hardly be surprised
when she gets a violent response. That applies to anyone of either sex.
Louise
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:42:26 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon
Message-ID: <36A24B32.462C@geocities.com>
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SupeStud00@aol.com wrote:
> << Women *are* different from men, not just
> physically, but psychologically >>
> And spiritually.
This is the kind of "hit and run" response that has everyone mad at you.
You must support your statement with canon scenes from the series that
show how women differ spiritutally. You might quote Cally's response to
a statement and compare it with that of Travis, for instance.
Pat P
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:31:12 EST
From: SupeStud00@aol.com
To: pussnboots@geocities.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon
Message-ID: <a8c02243.36a272c0@aol.com>
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In a message dated 1/17/99 5:50:30 PM EST, pussnboots@geocities.com writes:
<< << Women *are* different from men, not just
> physically, but psychologically >>
> And spiritually.
This is the kind of "hit and run" response that has everyone mad at you.
You must support your statement with canon scenes from the series that
show how women differ spiritutally. You might quote Cally's response to
a statement and compare it with that of Travis, for instance. >>
Actually, I wasn't referring much to the series.
But thankfs for the advice.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:41:04 EST
From: SupeStud00@aol.com
To: Louise.Rutter@btinternet.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Power/The Woman in B7
Message-ID: <db3af33.36a27510@aol.com>
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In a message dated 1/17/99 5:53:40 PM EST, Louise.Rutter@btinternet.com
writes:
<<
SS wrote:
>What do you think of my analysis on "Power"?
<>
I believe Steed was saying that the interaction of men and women should be
such as we say in the Hommiks camp. Very subservient, homebound supportive
females and hunter-gatherer men. Interesting that the Hommiks were at least
surviving better than the Seska. I think he was, successfuly, showing that
when there is order to the male/female dynamic, and eah knows his/her purpose
and place, the entire machine is more efficint.
<< I don't think that last exchange between Avon and Pella had anything to do
with sex at all - Avon would have shot anyone who tried to kill him, and
the fact that Pella was female was irrelevant. Pella accuses Avon of
shooting her because men are intrinsically violent; Avon simply points out
that if she resorts to the use of violence, she can hardly be surprised
when she gets a violent response. That applies to anyone of either sex. >>
Agreed, though I think a little more can be read into it. I think Steed was
trying to use Avon to say that there is a little of Avon in all men. And a
ittle of Pella in all women. That if women push men to a certain point, it is
illogical for them to expect males to remain "gentlemanly" for lack of a
better word. I think its a real statement on the dual nature of the woman's
liberation movement. About wanting the freedom and equality to join man's
world fully, but still wanting to keep the fringe benefits (having the door
held open, being the first off a sinking ship, etc.) I think was Avon was
essentially saying, you won't get it both ways, sister (and I mean no sexual
inneuendo by that statement.)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:42:00 EST
From: SupeStud00@aol.com
To: pussnboots@geocities.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon disagrees
Message-ID: <c57dc700.36a27548@aol.com>
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In a message dated 1/17/99 5:54:57 PM EST, pussnboots@geocities.com writes:
<<
This, of course, is why - when Vila and Avon got at it we all enjoy it
so much. For when it comes to wit, they are worthy opponents. :)
BTW, wit is always welcome on this list, no matter what the subject
matter. >>
LOL!!!!
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:39:44 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon
Message-ID: <36A24A90.7A1B@geocities.com>
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Kathryn Andersen wrote:
> Single parenting (whether because of
> divorce or carelessness or desertion) is fragmenting society. The
> nuclear family is being destroyed, let alone the extended family.
Actually, the ease of travel is fragmenting the family. And government /
capitalist policy is deliberately fragmenting the family. Taxes in the
50% range are levied to allow the feds to provide services once provided
by the extended family (care of the orphaned young, aged and infirm).
When parents know they need not rely on children to care for them in old
age, this removes their incentive to care for those children. Hence the
increased abandonment of children by fathers. And of aged parents by
grown children. No need to be nice to odd Aunt Edna - I'll never need
her to take in my kids should I die early; the feds will see to it.
And capitalists via the ad industry are busy conditioning everyone to
rely on their products for personal satisfaction and happiness. The more
fear and alienation they generate, the more money flows into their
coffers, as people attempt to buy safety and connection.
> - Vena, married to Muller (now deceased), no info about children
She herself says their relationship is "recreational" meaning she is a
sexual playmate
> Blake had a brother and a sister, not to mention an uncle and a
> cousin.
In this universe, family is often used against one. Not an asset!
Your insightful listing makes me see that the B7 universe is our present
capitalist family fragmenting course carried further to a cold, dismal
conclusion of alienation. Each of the crew is a sad, lonesome cast away.
Only Cally voices the sadness of their shared situation. And from what
we see of supporting characters, everyone's situation!
Pat P
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:50:25 -0700
From: Jacquelyn Taylor <ultmthrl@primenet.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Sprechen Sie Deutsch?
Message-ID: <36A27741.44AE@primenet.com>
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Uber Von Neil wrote:
> >Ich glaube, dass Sie ganz Scheisse schreiben. Warum?
> >Neil von Faulkner
>
And Joanne MacQueen asked:
> As Neneh Cherry put it, I don't speak Swahili, but I do get the
> impression that you don't think much of the idea. What does the rest of
> it mean? (Just for non-German understanding me, please.)
>
> Regards
> Joanne
>
And Neil teased:
> It is a statement to the effect that the opinions proffered by StupeSud00
> might have market potential as quality fertiliser.
>
Well, duh! We already knew as much. For those of you still fascinated by
this ongoing <well, I *am* behind in my email> debate:
What Neil Said Was:
"I think that you are writing shit. Why?"
Also, Neil, one "s" in "das."
Jackie <who will become completely lost if Neil starts scribing whole
German paragraphs at me>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:21:43 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Sprechen Sie Deutsch?
Message-Id: <199901180017.SAA01467@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Jacquelyn Taylor wrote:
>Also, Neil, one "s" in "das."
Not the way he was using it, meaning "that" in the sense of "I know that
you are..." It's "dass", normally spelled with one of those German double-s
characters which I'm not going to go look up how to reproduce here.
"Das", with one 's', is "the".
- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@rsc.raytheon.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:19:55 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Now we know...
Message-ID: <19990118001955.26991.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Has anyone considered that a certain person is so concerned about the
present state of motherhood because he probably still needs his mummy
quite badly?
Think about it. Avon is bloody arrogant, but at least he would listen
instead of demanding so much attention. If no one listened to him, that
was their problem - there wasn't much in the way of insistence that one
shared his point of view.
Regards
Joanne
"You stupid man."
The Sandman, aka Sandy, aka comedian Stephen Abbott.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:20:01 EST
From: SupeStud00@aol.com
To: pussnboots@geocities.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Social engineering
Message-ID: <648c0fde.36a27e31@aol.com>
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In a message dated 1/17/99 7:17:19 PM EST, pussnboots@geocities.com writes:
<< In Victorian
England, only the rich ladies fainted from wearing tight corsets - while
the poor scullery maids and washerwomen wore loose shifts that enabled
them to physically toil all the long day. >>
But more importantly, they didn't look good.
What's a little suffering for a nice figure?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:28:28 EST
From: SupeStud00@aol.com
To: j_macqueen@hotmail.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Now we know...
Message-ID: <a4b582f6.36a2802c@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 1/17/99 7:22:08 PM EST, j_macqueen@hotmail.com writes:
<<
Has anyone considered that a certain person is so concerned about the
present state of motherhood because he probably still needs his mummy
quite badly?>>
Wrong. What makes you think I want attention. Perhaps you just aren't
accustomed to dealing with honest people very often.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:45:09 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Social engineering
Message-ID: <19990118004510.11690.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
>But what does it mean? Rule thru grey? gristle? greasy?
>Postulating Pat P
I think you can take it as meaning a sort of power behind the throne, an
advisor or counselor with a great deal of knowledge of the way things
work. I'm sure he'd think of himself that way.
Regards
Joanne
Anger is a nenergy.
PiL, Rise.
(Yes, I know, but that's what it sounds like.)
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:06:59 PST
From: "Edith Spencer" <sueno45@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Social engineering
Message-ID: <19990118010659.24077.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Hello to all, and especially to SoupStew,
Gee whiz. So annoying. Because Soupstew went and said this, in reply
to Pat's post:
In a message dated 1/17/99 7:17:19 PM EST, pussnboots@geocities.com
writes:
<< In Victorian
England, only the rich ladies fainted from wearing tight corsets -
while
the poor scullery maids and washerwomen wore loose shifts that enabled
them to physically toil all the long day. >>
But more importantly, they didn't look good.
What's a little suffering for a nice figure?
geesh. And totally missed the oppourtunity to comment on Servie's
dresses, The high heeled boots various memebers of crew wore, or how
Major Vina (?) could be a mojor and not have her feet hurt. It is stuff
like that proves to be a wasted opportunity, and which annoys people.
Edith
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 01:49:17 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Trolling 101
Message-ID: <000d01be4285$3b465060$ca8edec2@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Pat said -
>I also am *not* offended by SuperSud's (I say that cuz he got everyone
>worked up into a lather) posts, albeit the delivery is often 'hit and
>run' Perhaps it is his writing style, more so than the message, that has
>people upset. Also, I appreciate his restrained rejoinders to those
>outright attacks on him by people who became too emotionally offended by
>his opinion to respond to the message.
I couldn't care less about his opinions, Pat, or his supposedly raunchy
private life. I'm just sick of hearing about them over and over again.
It seems to me (of course I could be wrong - email being so hard to
interpret) that he is not being polite to you, and the other women who have
been nice to him, but making fun of you. That seems very rude to me, much
ruder than anything that anyone has said to him. This is just my intuition,
which is far from infallible as I would be the first to admit.
Anyway I've just found out how to killfile so it's no longer an issue for
me.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:13:59 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Trolling 101
Message-ID: <19990118021400.18485.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
>I couldn't care less about his opinions, Pat, or his supposedly
>raunchy private life. I'm just sick of hearing about them over and over
>again.
Hear, hear!
>It seems to me (of course I could be wrong - email being so hard to
>interpret) that he is not being polite to you, and the other women who
>have been nice to him, but making fun of you. That seems very rude >to
me, much ruder than anything that anyone has said to him. This is >just
my intuition, which is far from infallible as I would be the first to
>admit.
Trust your intuition, Alison. I suspect that he doesn't really care what
we think, just so long as he can interpret a flattering reaction to what
HE thinks. Forget "This is my truth, tell me yours" - which is the very
thing that drew me into joining. I'd much rather read other people's
posts, because they have so many other topics of conversation (and
interesting ones at that), not just one that they insist on discussing,
regardless of people's tolerance having been exhausted. Reluctant as I
was to do so, the block sender function of Hotmail has been pressed into
use, and the person in question has the dubious honour of being the
first person I've killfiled. Our own egos need far more work than his.
>Anyway I've just found out how to killfile so it's no longer an issue
for
>me.
>Alison
Bravo <smile>
Regards
Joanne
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:44:22 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Social engineering
Message-ID: <199901172244_MC2-66FF-6046@compuserve.com>
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Sarah T wrote:
>Bayban makes a remark about Blake, something to the
>effect that "I was on the wanted list before he crawled
>out of his creche."
Though we do know that Bayban enjoyed a warm relationship with his mother,
and I imagined he was brought up very carefully by her. (Was she the only
mother specifically mentioned, apart from Kasabi and the fleeting glimpse
of the elder Stannis?)
Re invisible mothers, those discussing which crew member they'd like as
parent seemed to restrict themselves to the men. But I'd pick Cally.
Strong and gentle.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:44:17 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Women, B7 and Avon
Message-ID: <199901172244_MC2-66FF-6044@compuserve.com>
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Kathryn Andersen described:
>Avon's Sympathetic Kindred Spirit. Strictly platonic.
Mary Sue too.
>I'd happily have a long-distance relationship with him;
>a meeting of minds -- as far away as possible, like, via email.
>That way, he couldn't kill me if things went wrong.
But I wouldn't count on that!
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:07:35 +1000
From: "Taina Nieminen" <tenzil@bigpond.com>
To: "B7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Responding to the Message
Message-ID: <009e01be4298$175aa030$6f6f6f6f@tenzil>
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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I've spent a lot of time thinking about whether I should respond at all to
SS debate, and if so, what I should say. It took a lot of contemplation, and
a lot of cigarettes (I think therefore I smoke, or perhaps it should be I
smoke therefore I think). Anyway, here it is.
SS's message:
>It's important, but the mother should provide the bulk of it. The man
should
>tend to his other duties.
As far as I can gather, from SS's posts that I did read, and what people are
quoting (post-killfile), he is saying that women should stay home and look
after children, and that men should work to support their families (and
women who do not want children are "selfish"). It's the message that angers
me. (It doesn't "offend" or "upset". It *angers*.) Any suggestion that any
human being *should* follow a particular life path angers me. We are all
individuals, with our own needs, wants, strengths and weaknesses.
SS's opinion is not unique. There are many people who want to see others
forced back into the molds that they think people should fit. One person's
opinion is neither here nor there, but enough of them together can
constitute a significant political lobby group. That's why these opinions
matter to me.
Fully acknowledging that many, many people in the world still do not have
much control over their lives, I believe that more people do, than at any
other time in human history. I am an incurable optimist. I want to look
forward to the new millennium with hope, that human beings can learn to live
together, to balance rights with responsibility in such a way that people
can fulfil their potential in the way that they want to, the way they choose
to, without infringing on the freedoms and choices of others. "Shoulds" and
"shouldn'ts" matter to me.
I also want to make a brief remark on parenting (although my only experience
of parenting is on the receiving end).
What is considered to be "good" and "bad" parenting is socially determined.
Any cross-cultural survey of parenting practices will reveal that. And every
culture seems to consider their practices to be the "right" ones. I believe
it's good to bear this in mind when talking about what constitutes good and
bad parenting.
As I'm sure everyone is aware, a nature vs nurture debate has raged about
human personality for decades. It's still not settled, but I understand that
more and more evidence is accumulating on the nature side, as more carefully
constructed adoption and twin studies, and long-term follow-ups are carried
out.
Avon could well have had a loving and nurturing father and mother, who
despairingly asked each other "where did we go wrong?" Children are robust
individuals with their own personalities. These differences are apparent
even in newborns. Some babies are calm and placid and settle easily. Others
are very difficult to settle.
Finally, Alison wrote:
>It seems to me (of course I could be wrong - email being so hard to
>interpret) that he is not being polite to you, and the other women who have
>been nice to him, but making fun of you. That seems very rude to me, much
>ruder than anything that anyone has said to him. This is just my intuition,
>which is far from infallible as I would be the first to admit.
Your intuition fits mine perfectly. It's much easier to wind other people up
if you remain calm and "polite".
Taina
- ------------------------------
"What's 'friends,' Lyle?"
"It's like a chemical reaction between people, Condo."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:22:27 -0700
From: Jacquelyn Taylor <ultmthrl@primenet.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Nuisance
Message-ID: <36A2C513.4BFA@primenet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jacqueline.thijsen wrote:
>>>Not only that, but I no longer read any of Stupesud's postings. I find it
difficult and basically a waste of time to pay attention to someone who
in
effect tells me (and any other woman) that he does not respect me and
that I
should have no rights whatsoever. I have just deleted all of Studdies
postings
without bothering to read them and will continue to do so.>>>>
I subscribe to the digest version so that's rather a chore for me.
He'll go away if we ignore him. He'll go away if we cease responding to
him no matter how outrageous his posts. Let's deprive him of all this
gratifying attention. As long as we continue to feed him with sputtering
indignation, he's getting what he wants. And the posts will continue.
There's no reason we need justify our life choices to him.
I'm still behind in my reading.
Jackie <first, Stanistraken and now this!>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 21:33:05 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] sloganeering
Message-ID: <19990118053306.21949.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
>Which naturally, leads me to:
>Avon: the other white meat
>Pat P
<choke> You comparing him to pork?
Regards
Joanne
(yess! Hotmail gave me back all my saved messages! Hoorah!)
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 00:44:25 EST
From: SupeStud00@aol.com
To: alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Trolling 101
Message-ID: <592d5568.36a2ca39@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 1/17/99 8:52:43 PM EST, alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk
writes:
<<
It seems to me (of course I could be wrong - email being so hard to
interpret) that he is not being polite to you, and the other women who have
been nice to him, but making fun of you. That seems very rude to me, much
ruder than anything that anyone has said to him. This is just my intuition,
which is far from infallible as I would be the first to admit.
I haven't been impolite to any member of this list, man or woman and I intend
to continue to respect all posters' opinions. I haven't ridiculed any
individual and have no plans to. I also don't use profanity, in either my
personal or public life. I do have very strong opinions in many areas, one of
which is the gender role issue in society. It seems that anyone with a strong
opposing opinion on this list is seen as automatically sarcastic or someone
not to be trusted. I have given you no reason to not trust me. I have been
honest from the first post, or perhaps you prefer someone who smiles at you
and then stabs you in the back as soon as you turn your back. All future
posts, should I be allowed to post here in the future, will be B7 related by
me. If you guys continue to choose to insult someone because you don't
understand them, that's fine, do so, but do it in private. If you wish to
insult me, my email address is open, but I come here because I'm a B7 fan, and
there are so few of us that I welcomed the chance to consort with other
likeminded individuals at least likeminded in their appreciation of B7. I
don't think its fair to the others here for you, or anyone else, to continue
to hurl insults. If you wish to discuss this further, you know how to reach
me....now back to B7.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 00:09:25 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: The Men in Blake's 7 (was Re: [B7L] The Morrigan in B7)
Message-ID: <19990118080927.8638.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Louise Rutter wrote:
>What do other women think of the Blake's 7 guys, if they consider, not
a dream romance, but the way real life usually works?
I think I would like Avon (I like anyone who makes me laugh, even at
someone else's expense) but - as I am scatty, disorganised, a menace to
computers everywhere and make Vila look like a model of logic - Avon
would KILL me. And enjoy it.
And as I said before, if I could reach Tarrant's neck...
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:43:08 +1000
From: "Taina Nieminen" <tenzil@bigpond.com>
To: "B7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: The Men in Blake's 7 (was Re: [B7L] The Morrigan in B7)
Message-ID: <002701be42be$9350ad30$6f6f6f6f@tenzil>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Louise Rutter wrote:
>>What do other women think of the Blake's 7 guys, if they consider, not
>a dream romance, but the way real life usually works?
Carnell. Intelligent, perceptive, unmaterialistic, not interested in power
(from his statements in his recorded message to Servalan).
Taina
- ------------------------------
"What's 'friends,' Lyle?"
"It's like a chemical reaction between people, Condo."
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 07:41:08 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Sprechen Sie Deutsch?
Message-ID: <00ba01be42c5$c1470480$721fac3e@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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>Jacquelyn Taylor wrote:
>
>>Also, Neil, one "s" in "das."
>
>Not the way he was using it, meaning "that" in the sense of "I know that
>you are..." It's "dass", normally spelled with one of those German double-s
>characters which I'm not going to go look up how to reproduce here.
>
>"Das", with one 's', is "the".
>
> - Lisa
Danke sehr, Lisa! (Jac had me worried for a mo, though).
FWIW, I gather the Scharf's S (the squiggly double-s that looks a bit like a
capital B) has now been officially removed from the German language. Might
be wrong but I'm sure I read it somewhere. (My landlady runs a language
school for German students, and I used to do a bit of teaching on the side,
so I keep an interest.)
Tschus!
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 05:11:14 EST
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7
Message-ID: <20564599.36a308c2@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 1/15/99 8:20:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SupeStud00@aol.com writes:
<< Men should be the
hunters, gatherers, and women the home managers. Its a force of nature. >>
Actually, women are traditionally the gathereres, as well as the "home
managers." And frequently it was the gathering that would keep a tribe going,
when the hunters were unable to supply the tribe with food. D. Rose
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:17:38 +-100
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: "blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Nuisance
Message-ID: <01BE42DC.8D808100@nl-arn-lap0063>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Jacquelyn Taylor said:
>He'll go away if we ignore him. He'll go away if we cease responding to
>him no matter how outrageous his posts. Let's deprive him of all this
>gratifying attention. As long as we continue to feed him with sputtering
>indignation, he's getting what he wants. And the posts will continue.
>There's no reason we need justify our life choices to him.
Must be something about the name Jacqueline (or Jacquelyn), so it gets given to very intelligent people ;-).
>Jackie <first, Stanistraken and now this!>
That reminds me, Calle did you ever find out why Ms Stanistraken posted all those weird messages? And did she just go away, or did you kick her out?
Jacqueline Thijsen (who is way too curious for her own good).
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:29:17 +1000
From: "Taina Nieminen" <tenzil@bigpond.com>
To: "B7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Nuisance
Message-ID: <005601be42d5$c9e86330$6f6f6f6f@tenzil>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>That reminds me, Calle did you ever find out why Ms Stanistraken posted all
those weird messages? And did she just go away, or did you kick her out?
>
>Jacqueline Thijsen (who is way too curious for her own good).
>
Actually, I didn't get any weird messages from any Stanistraken. I have been
wondering what this Stanistraken thing was all about. What e-mail address
did they come from?
Taina (probably also too curious for her own good)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:24:50 +0000 (GMT)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: B7 <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Social engineering
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.990118112101.782A-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sun, 17 Jan 1999, Taina Nieminen wrote:
> I've always thought that the Federation was a very patriarchal society, in
> which it was difficult, but not impossible, for women to achieve positions
> of high power. The only powerful women who come to mind right now are
> Servalan, and Governor Le Grand in Voice from the Past.
I always had the opposite impression. There are a fair few women in
positions of power and responsibility, and no-one ever remarks upon the
fact. This implies that it is an accepted fact of life. (I'm ignoring
Jarvik, just because.) Funny how we managed to get such different
impressions from the same series.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:27:35 +0000 (GMT)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.990118112503.782B-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Lisa Williams wrote:
>
> To add to your list: Kasabi, one child, no info about the child's father.
> As far as I can recall, she's the only actual mother we see on the show.
> (Of course, in the script Kasabi -- then "Kasabian" -- was Veron's
> *father*...)
That's interesting. I think that episode benefits a lot from Kasabi being
female. Do you know at what stage Kasabian bacame Kasabi? I'm just curious
about whether it was at the script editing stage (and hence done by Chris
Boucher) or at the casting stage (and thus David Maloney's idea).
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:52:39 +1000
From: "Taina Nieminen" <tenzil@bigpond.com>
To: "B7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Social engineering
Message-ID: <006501be42d9$0d207540$6f6f6f6f@tenzil>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Iain wrote:
>I always had the opposite impression. There are a fair few women in
>positions of power and responsibility, and no-one ever remarks upon the
>fact. This implies that it is an accepted fact of life. (I'm ignoring
>Jarvik, just because.) Funny how we managed to get such different
>impressions from the same series.
Ah, someone needs to do an actual count of how many women there were in
positions of power (and how many men, to get the ratio). I remember reading
(a long time ago) that people tend to overestimate the numbers of women in a
group. That is, if, say, 35% of a group is female, people tend to perceive
it as 50%. I'm not saying that this is what's actually contributing to our
different impressions, just that it's a possibility.
Also possible is that we have different standards for what constitutes a
position of power. Avalon was outside the Federation power structure, and I
recall that Kasabi had been an instructor of some sort. I don't know where
that fits in the hierarchy. The Clone Masters, too, seem to have been
outside the Federation structure.
Also, I see the Federation as a very militaristic society (Parr's remark in
Trial that Space Command runs the Federation.) Apart from Servalan and
Thania, the only women in the military that I can recall were all mutoids.
If being in the military is an important avenue for power, the lack of women
in the military does make it more difficult for women in general to achieve
power.
Taina
- ------------------------------
"What's 'friends,' Lyle?"
"It's like a chemical reaction between people, Condo."
------------------------------
Date: 18 Jan 1999 13:15:31 +0100
From: Calle Dybedahl <calle@lysator.liu.se>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Nuisance
Message-ID: <us67a4hj4s.fsf@sara.lysator.liu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl> writes:
> That reminds me, Calle did you ever find out why Ms Stanistraken
> posted all those weird messages? And did she just go away, or did
> you kick her out?
No, I never found out. I removed him/her from the list to stop the
flood, and later I got a mail saying that his/hers account had been
closed. That's all I know.
--
Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se
"I'd rather hang on to madness than normality" -- KaTe Bush
------------------------------
Date: 18 Jan 1999 13:18:43 +0100
From: Calle Dybedahl <calle@lysator.liu.se>
To: "B7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Nuisance
Message-ID: <us4spohizg.fsf@sara.lysator.liu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
"Taina Nieminen" <tenzil@bigpond.com> writes:
> Actually, I didn't get any weird messages from any Stanistraken. I have been
> wondering what this Stanistraken thing was all about. What e-mail address
> did they come from?
d.stanistraken@dundee.ac.uk, and as I think I said earlier I removed
several hundred messages from him/her from the outgoing mailqueue, so
relatively new subscribers (who are near the end of the file holding
the subscriber list) may not have recieved any of them at all.
--
Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se
"I'd rather hang on to madness than normality" -- KaTe Bush
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 07:47:37 EST
From: SupeStud00@aol.com
To: AChevron@aol.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7
Message-ID: <6def6850.36a32d69@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 1/18/99 5:15:16 AM EST, AChevron@aol.com writes:
<<
<< Men should be the
hunters, gatherers, and women the home managers. Its a force of nature. >>
Actually, women are traditionally the gathereres, as well as the "home
managers." And frequently it was the gathering that would keep a tribe going,
when the hunters were unable to supply the tribe with food. >>
Thanks for the clarification. It sort of makes you wonder why some persons
still associate hunting with gathering.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:03:28 +1000
From: "Taina Nieminen" <tenzil@bigpond.com>
To: "B7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Mutoids
Message-ID: <008801be42e2$f1771d30$6f6f6f6f@tenzil>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Now here's a question that just occurred to me. Were all the mutoids female?
I can't recall seeing any male ones.
And if they were, why?
If they were mostly pilots, possibly because of the greater speed of nerve
conduction in females, hence reaction time. I seem to recall that this came
up in one of Heinlein's novels, to explain why all the pilots were female.
Of course, the non-mutoid pilots are all male.
Taina
- ------------------------------
"What's 'friends,' Lyle?"
"It's like a chemical reaction between people, Condo."
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 07:05:57 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon
Message-Id: <199901181302.HAA24285@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Iain Coleman wrote:
>That's interesting. I think that episode benefits a lot from Kasabi being
>female. Do you know at what stage Kasabian bacame Kasabi?
I can't tell, but the script I have is very close to the finished episode
as far as lines go, so the substitution probably took place fairly late in
the process. Kasabi's lines didn't change; all they did for the aired
version was lop a couple of letters off the name and change "father" to
"mother" in the necessary references. It could easily have been done at the
casting stage.
- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@rsc.raytheon.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:06:31 EST
From: SupeStud00@aol.com
To: tenzil@bigpond.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Responding to the Message
Message-ID: <f99a9a74.36a331d7@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 1/18/99 1:20:14 AM EST, tenzil@bigpond.com writes:
<<
I've spent a lot of time thinking about whether I should respond at all to
SS debate, and if so, what I should say. It took a lot of contemplation, and
a lot of cigarettes (I think therefore I smoke, or perhaps it should be I
smoke therefore I think). Anyway, here it is.
Thanks for responding.
<<As far as I can gather, from SS's posts that I did read, and what people
are
quoting (post-killfile), he is saying that women should stay home and look
after children, and that men should work to support their families (and
women who do not want children are "selfish").>>
You are correct in your assessment. I believe that the degadation of society
is rooted in the loss of the nuclear family. As far as selfish, I think men
and women who do not want children for purely reasons dealing with themselves,
are selfish. Not just women, couples.
<< It's the message that angers
me. (It doesn't "offend" or "upset". It *angers*.) Any suggestion that any
human being *should* follow a particular life path angers me.>>
Curious. Do you mean any suggestion by an individual, the government, your
parents, or is it anyone? I suggested that it was possible the Federation, in
Blakes 7, had dabbled in it, especially in the delta classes, ie Vila.
Perhaps Vila becoming a thief was his way of rebeling against that system.
<< We are all
individuals, with our own needs, wants, strengths and weaknesses.>>
Agreed, but we are also subject to our governments, our jobs, our particular
talents, our parents (if we're lucky enough to have two) etc. How does this
fit in with personal freedom, and do we really have personal freedom?
<< SS's opinion is not unique. There are many people who want to see others
forced back into the molds that they think people should fit. One person's
opinion is neither here nor there, but enough of them together can
constitute a significant political lobby group. That's why these opinions
matter to me.>>
My opinion is based on the fact that if persons are encouraged or even made to
fit those molds, we would have a much more efficient system within our
society. Things would get done a lot quicker and a lot faster in the business
world, with a minimum of distractions, cat-fights, etc. I think this would be
the Federations reason for attempting social engineering on their people.
<< Fully acknowledging that many, many people in the world still do not have
much control over their lives, I believe that more people do, than at any
other time in human history. I am an incurable optimist. I want to look
forward to the new millennium with hope, that human beings can learn to live
together, to balance rights with responsibility in such a way that people
can fulfil their potential in the way that they want to, the way they choose
to, without infringing on the freedoms and choices of others. "Shoulds" and
"shouldn'ts" matter to me.>>
Good point. That being said, I'm probably less the optinist. I just don't
think human beings are ready for this sort of freedom during our time, and
obviously not during Blake's time, based on the actions of the rebels and the
government. I guess I've been on the receiving end of the human condition a
little too much.
<>
I believe you are correct, which supports my original argument of the
importance of biological parents.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:10:15 EST
From: SupeStud00@aol.com
To: tenzil@bigpond.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Mutoids
Message-ID: <cf940f23.36a332b7@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 1/18/99 8:03:15 AM EST, tenzil@bigpond.com writes:
<<
Now here's a question that just occurred to me. Were all the mutoids female?
I can't recall seeing any male ones.
And if they were, why?
If they were mostly pilots, possibly because of the greater speed of nerve
conduction in females, hence reaction time. I seem to recall that this came
up in one of Heinlein's novels, to explain why all the pilots were female.
Of course, the non-mutoid pilots are all male. >>
Very interesting observation. Amazingly it never occurred to me, but perhaps
its biological. Perhaps the process of creating a mutoid is rooted in
something dealing with the female body, or perhaps its psychological. I have
been frequently told that women handle pain much better than men (ie
childbirth).
Or perhaps its the Federation indulging in that social engineering again,
perhaps in an effort to reduce the number of women to men, based upon the
reluctance of women to double up with so few men.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:30:51 +1000
From: vera@c031.aone.net.au
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] sloganeering
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990118233051.008842b0@mail01.mel.aone.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Pat P
>>Which naturally, leads me to:
>>Avon: the other white meat
Joanne
><choke> You comparing him to pork?
Well, it seems as if *porking* is what a lot of our listmembers (not
necessarily the be-y-chromosomed among us, of course) have in mind for him.
Speaking of which - do you lads not like our Avon? Or have no reasons to
like him? Or are bored with talking about him? (Oh, say it ain't so!) Or
are tentative about professing an opinion? Friend? Hero? Idiot?
Inspiration? Strong or merely brittle?
If Trek was Wagon Train to the Stars, was B7 The Searchers?
Malissa
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #34
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