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blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 303
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Gotcha all.
[B7L] Chain snowballs.
[B7L] In laws and out laws...
Re: [B7L] A New Character
Re: [B7L] A New Character
[B7L] Re: Gotcha all
Re: [B7L] A New Character
Re: [B7L] A New Character
RE: [B7L] A New Character
[B7L] Manchester Meet, Saturday December 12
Re: [B7L] A New Character
Re: [B7L] A New Character
Fwd: [B7L] A New Character
[B7L] "Good and evil, there never is one without the other"
Tiresome Ethics (was Re: [B7L] A New Character)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 00:08:57 -0000
From: "Dangermouse" <master@sol.co.uk>
To: "Calle Dybedahl" <calle@lysator.liu.se>, <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Gotcha all.
Message-Id: <199812080020.AAA09085@gnasher.sol.co.uk>
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> From: Calle Dybedahl <calle@lysator.liu.se>
> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
> Subject: Re: [B7L] Gotcha all.
> Date: 06 December 1998 19:08
>
> Spam and chain-letter-type things are not welcome on this list. Please
> don't do that again.
Well, it wasn't either- just trying to inject a little festive fun.
Sorry that humour doesn't seem to be so welcome.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 02:00:38 GMT
From: dixonm@access.mountain.net (Meredith Dixon)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Chain snowballs.
Message-ID: <366c872b.165787721@cyberplanet.net>
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I just saw Dangermouse's rejoinder to Calle -- that the Internet
snowball he sent was "not a chain letter." It most certainly
*is* a chain letter; I've seen those confounded snowballs all
over the net, and I'm glad Calle spoke up in response.
I didn't find the "Internet snowball fight" particularly funny
the first time -- several weeks ago, by the way -- that I received
a posting, and the joke definitely hasn't improved with age.
Thanks, Calle!
Meredith Dixon
dixonm@access.mountain.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:55:03 -0800
From: penny_kjelgaard@juno.com (Penny L Kjelgaard)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] In laws and out laws...
Message-ID: <19981207.190233.-217145.0.penny_kjelgaard@juno.com>
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My darling 7 year old (remember when she was 5?) daughter has given me
another memorable exchange. Missy was practicing getting up with her
hands joined behind her back (hence the following conversation,) and of
course Travis entered her mind.
Missy: Mamma, Servalan was chasing both Blake and Travis...and for no
good reason!
Mamma: She had a very good reason. They were both OUTLAWS.
Missy: And what was she...and INLAW?
Peace,
Penny
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 01:02:28 EST
From: LordRab@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character
Message-ID: <10c7ee97.366cc0f4@aol.com>
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In a message dated 98-12-07 09:21:38 EST, you write:
<< Kerr Avon) :
"I rarely comment on the Ethics of others"
>>
Nice line! Though the episode of Voyager you mention is one I actually
almost liked. They may have chosen the "PC" solution, but I didn't get the
feel that anyone was happy with the outcome.
So what would the B7 folks have done? Avon, as you pointed, probably would
have kept the data. What of the others? Deborah Rose >>
I "almost" liked that episode myself ! I would have prefered a bit more
debate about the ethics of using Cardasian medical data obtained from gruesome
experiments on their prisoners. Although to their credit, the Star Trek
universe does not rely over heavily on rock 'em sock 'em fight scenes ( but
look out for Data's "lock and load" scene from the upcoming movie) they still
manage to water down the salient points when they dare to be different.
I don't think that we can judge the morals and ethics of other people from
other times by contemporary standards. Rather than say what I think the B7
folks would have done I'll say what I would have had them do ( After all, they
are fictional characters and at the mercy of writers, heh heh ). In that
future, people would have accepted that most of our medical data has usually
been obtained from experimenting on live prisoners, albeit creatures slightly
lower on the food chain than us, and that even delicious Orange Tang probably
came at higher price than we'll ever know. ( for all you Brits, Tang powder
was developed by NASA as an artificial orange juice substitute for Astronauts
in their top secret laboratories and then put on the market on the shelf next
to the Spam)
Will the future be more humane? Will humans find a substitute for lab mice?
The B7 universe is not quite the Age of Enlightenment Part 2, but Star Trek's
future humans are knockin' on Utopias door !
Yikes ! Will Utopia be that smarmy? Blake and crew would keep the data without
a second thought and move on to some planet for a holiday only to find that
the planet is actually the pet asteroid of an inter galactic entity from the
WalMartian Cluster and that the delectible fruits and berries that they have
been eating are really..........
Well, anyway, I am reminded of a scene from 'Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"
when Ford Prefect and Co. are dining at the Restaurant at the End of the
Universe, and is revolted by the creature who offers up it's own succulent
shanks as the main course.
One man's stew is another man's best friend.
Cheers,
Rab
"If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 11:19:46 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character
Message-Id: <E0znLCh-0001cw-00@post.mail.demon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Rab said -
> Will the future be more humane? Will humans find a substitute for lab
mice?
> The B7 universe is not quite the Age of Enlightenment Part 2, but Star
Trek's
> future humans are knockin' on Utopias door !
I've been thinking lately about what they call the 'Whig view of history'
The rough idea is that Whig's see history as progress ('things can only get
better') they believe in reason and meritocracy. The contrast is with
'Tories' who see history as retreat, are pessimistic about reason, and
believe in established power relations.
The reason I've been thinking about this is that I think the so-called
left/liberal governments we have at present in places like the USA, the UK,
Germany etc. are actually Whig governments. I think this makes them easier
to understand, rather than thinking about left and right.
Anyway, that aside, I think Star Trek is Whig SF. Enlightenment,
redemption, science, progress. I'm not knocking it, just mentioning it.
The glib thing to say would be that B7 is Tory SF. However I really don't
think it is, because it is so negative about the weaknesses and smugness of
established powers, and relatively positive about the idea of smashing them
up. Anyway, unlike Penny I think this makes the B7 writers freer than the
ST writers, because while there aren't any 'goodies' in B7, there aren't
any (real) baddies in ST. In line with the Whig view there are just people
who haven't yet become enlightened by progress.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:50:54 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Gotcha all
Message-ID: <199812080851_MC2-62D6-C871@compuserve.com>
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Oh... when I saw a sort of circle and the word "squish" I assumed that
Dangermouse had finally come up with a picture of the alleged extra-marital
shagging. I must have spent too much time on Space City, I suppose.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 19:10:32 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character
Message-ID: <366C98A8.6BF2@geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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LordRab@aol.com wrote:
> All I could think of was a line from my favorite Blake's 7 character
> (surprise!!!! It's Kerr Avon):
> "I rarely comment on the Ethics of others"
Hail Lord Rab!
and welcome to the list.
Happily, none of the B7 characters are overly zealous when it comes to
morals - of anyone. This Federated space is a grey, grey place. But
that's what makes the "danger" real. The potential for harm. Yes, in
this series people can get killed. And, happily, do! The Trek franchise
has shown us how dull it is when we know that nobody (except nameless
red shirts) will ever suffer injury or death. Or even wounded pride. If
there is so much as a minor disagreement, they will always all "make
nice" by episode end.
Gan steps forward now and again, as he did in Shadow, to take a moral
stand. And look how tiresome it made him.
I love the self-doubt these characters deal with. At times I can
empathize with all of them, for they personify basic human failings:
Blake wondering if he's throwing his life away on a pipe dream. Avon
knowing that nobody likes him cuz he's such a conceited egghead. Vila's
laziness and tendencies toward imbibing controlled substances. Cally's
loneliness. Jenna's jealousy and unrequited love. Gan's stupidity.
Tarrant's immaturity. Soolin's self-absorbtion. Dayna? hmmmm no, I don't
share her blood lust. Tho I wish I did, cuz it looks like such fun! :-)
I resent and dislike the Trek characters cuz they are so dang perfect
and self-confident. Priggish Picard most of all. Lt. Barkley is the only
one who engenders any sympathy from the viewers. And he is such a sad
case that he's nearly a cartoon.
re: destroying the medical records obtained "under duress" by the
Cardassian doctors on Voyager. What did the Allies do with Nazi research
on human endurance obtained during WWII? Was this also destroyed, or
added to the body of Western knowledge? Was it the right decision?
> "Give me ambiguity or give me something else"
hahahaha
Pat P
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:12:42 -0600
From: "Lorna B." <msdelta@magnolia.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character
Message-Id: <199812081604.KAA25678@pemberton.magnolia.net>
Pat P said:
>re: destroying the medical records obtained "under duress" by the
>Cardassian doctors on Voyager. What did the Allies do with Nazi research
>on human endurance obtained during WWII? Was this also destroyed, or
>added to the body of Western knowledge? Was it the right decision?
I would like to ask that people put spoiler space or some sort of warning on
posts like these. Not everyone has ready access to the new Voyager or DS9
episodes and would like a chance to enjoy them without knowing the plot
points in advance.
Lorna B.
"Cookies and porn? You're the best mom ever!"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:25:37 -0000
From: "Gregory Graham" <greg@geharris.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] A New Character
Message-ID: <000d01be22c7$63b95840$82ba46c2@barny.ascada.com>
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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As far as I know this knowledge along with the information on rocketry from
the V2(orig R4?) program is still available. Since the Apollo program was
based on V2 technology, where would sci-fi hopes and dreams be without
ex-nazi scientists? Mind you if you would like to know about unethical
research, ask the Koreans about Japanese scientists. Apparently they make
Nazi, and Federation, scientists look positively wet.
Greg
-----Original Message-----
From: pussnboots@geocities.com [mailto:pussnboots@geocities.com]
Sent: 08 December 1998 03:11
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character
<snip>
re: destroying the medical records obtained "under duress" by the
Cardassian doctors on Voyager. What did the Allies do with Nazi research
on human endurance obtained during WWII? Was this also destroyed, or
added to the body of Western knowledge? Was it the right decision?
> "Give me ambiguity or give me something else"
hahahaha
Pat P
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:32:50 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:space-city@world.std.com" <space-city@world.std.com>,
"Blake's 7 (Lysator)" <BLAKES7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Manchester Meet, Saturday December 12
Message-ID: <199812081333_MC2-62EA-7FBB@compuserve.com>
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Mainly to celebrate the arrival of Nicola Collie, well-known New Zealand
Space Citizen and Servalan lookalike, on England's shores, a few of the B7
fans in the Manchester area are planning to get together on the
afternoon/evening of Saturday, December 12. If any lurkers or people we
have unforgiveably forgotten to tell about it are interested, the plan is
to gather at the Fab Cafe round about three o'clock, and eventually go for
a curry in Rusholme.
The Fab Cafe is (allegedly, I haven't been there yet) at 111 Portland
Street (that's the road from Piccadilly Gardens to Oxford Street, if you're
as vague as me about names). If you're coming from Piccadilly, it is said
to be on the left-hand side, somewhere between Princess Street and Oxford
Street. So if you're coming from Oxford Street, conversely, it's quite
soon on the right. There should be a free-standing bill board thing on the
pavement outside.
Anyone wanting to check with me for details email
101637.2064@compuserve.com.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:29:28 PST
From: "Penny Dreadful" <pdreadful@hotmail.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character
Message-ID: <19981208212929.29590.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Alison said:
>Anyway, unlike Penny I think this makes the B7 writers freer than the
>ST writers, because while there aren't any 'goodies' in B7, there
aren't
>any (real) baddies in ST. In line with the Whig view there are just
people
>who haven't yet become enlightened by progress.
>
Hey, are you calling me a Trekkie? Grr! Lazeron-destructors at dawn!
What I *meant* was that it's very difficult to have Good triumph over
Evil on a weekly basis in a universe where there *is* no Good. Much
like our own (in my humbly cynical opinion).
I don't *need* Good to triumph over Evil in order to feel good drama
has been perpetrated. But I know lots of people who do, and they watch
Star Trek and the Money Keeps Rolling In.
-- Penny "I am not Spock" Dreadful
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:33:58 PST
From: "Edith Spencer" <sueno45@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character
Message-ID: <19981208213358.21033.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Pat had responded to Lord Rab:
<snip>
I resent and dislike the Trek characters cuz they are so dang perfect
and self-confident. Priggish Picard most of all. Lt. Barkley is the only
one who engenders any sympathy from the viewers. And he is such a sad
case that he's nearly a cartoon.
All Right then,
I must admit, I do like Picard, priggish and all (smile) First, he is
a Frenchman with a British accent (smirk)and because he's unashamedly
bald. ( ha- hee). And of I identify with Barkely- nervous, antisocial,
smart and cute. Aww...
But I like the B7 series because of the not-so-clean characters and
(what seems to me at least) the extrapolation of the British Empire. I
find the politics and manuvering quite fascinating indeed. However, I
don't think that the two series can be compared- too diametric. But I
think there can justifiable criticism of both.
Edith
______________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 18:26:30 EST
From: LordRab@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: [B7L] A New Character
Message-ID: <85c41ce6.366db5a6@aol.com>
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In a message dated 98-12-08 11:15:51 EST, msdelta@magnolia.net writes:
>
>I would like to ask that people put spoiler space or some sort of warning on
>posts like these. Not everyone has ready access to the new Voyager or DS9
>episodes and would like a chance to enjoy them without knowing the plot
>points in advance.
Good Point Lorna...sorry, but I thought it was a rerun, I watch the Star Trek
stuff so rarely that I just didn't consider it night be a new episode. I hope
we didn't ruin the story for you more than the writers already have.
>
>Lorna B.
>"Cookies and porn? You're the best mom ever!"
>
Yum!
Regards, Rab
"I practice safe eating, I only eat condoments"
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From: "Lorna B." <msdelta@magnolia.net>
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Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character
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Pat P said:
>re: destroying the medical records obtained "under duress" by the
>Cardassian doctors on Voyager. What did the Allies do with Nazi research
>on human endurance obtained during WWII? Was this also destroyed, or
>added to the body of Western knowledge? Was it the right decision?
I would like to ask that people put spoiler space or some sort of warning on
posts like these. Not everyone has ready access to the new Voyager or DS9
episodes and would like a chance to enjoy them without knowing the plot
points in advance.
Lorna B.
"Cookies and porn? You're the best mom ever!"
--part0_913159591_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 15:56:13 PST
From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] "Good and evil, there never is one without the other"
Message-ID: <19981208235613.24905.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Penny "I am not Spock" Dreadful:
>I don't *need* Good to triumph over Evil in order to feel good drama
>has been perpetrated. But I know lots of people who do, and they
>watch Star Trek and the Money Keeps Rolling In.
I know B7 is supposed to be about shades of grey, but some characters
are less grey than others. Servalan's character and motives were
explored in some episodes, but one could make a case for saying she was
just a greedy, evil gangster. And then the Federation itself was never
portrayed as anything but evil.
Conversely, there were some characters who could genuinely have been
cast as "good". Gan is the obvious choice; another example might be, on
account of their devotion to the "Rule of Life", the clonemasters.
There were examples of good and evil in B7 -- of that I'm sure. It's
just that they weren't plastered all over every plot. For me, the
biggest difference between Star Trek and B7 is that I've never watched
an episode of ST and come away from it wishing the events I'd just
witnessed hadn't happened. [I may come away from an episode of ST
wishing it had never been filmed in the first place, but that's just
me...]
Cheers,
-- Rob
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:09:15 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Tiresome Ethics (was Re: [B7L] A New Character)
Message-ID: <19981209080915.26407@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Still haven't caught up on months of List stuff, gave up and started
reading recent postings, and saw:
On Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 07:10:32PM -0800, Pat Patera wrote:
> LordRab@aol.com wrote:
> > All I could think of was a line from my favorite Blake's 7 character
> > (surprise!!!! It's Kerr Avon):
> > "I rarely comment on the Ethics of others"
> Gan steps forward now and again, as he did in Shadow, to take a moral
> stand. And look how tiresome it made him.
Oi! No fair. Did not! (Kathryn jumps up and down)
Blake takes a moral stand (the Federation is evil, I will destroy it)
and he is not tiresome, yet when Gan takes a moral stand, he is?
*If* it were true that Gan was tiresome, then it must be some other
factor, rather than "taking a moral stand" that makes him so.
A lack of anger, perhaps. Or a lack of charisma. But not the moral
stand itself.
Mind you, Gan isn't tiresome anyway. Unless you think Cally is
tiresome too? She was rather fond of the moral stand herself.
> I love the self-doubt these characters deal with. At times I can
> empathize with all of them, for they personify basic human failings:
> Blake wondering if he's throwing his life away on a pipe dream. Avon
> knowing that nobody likes him cuz he's such a conceited egghead. Vila's
> laziness and tendencies toward imbibing controlled substances. Cally's
> loneliness. Jenna's jealousy and unrequited love. Gan's stupidity.
> Tarrant's immaturity. Soolin's self-absorbtion. Dayna? hmmmm no, I don't
> share her blood lust. Tho I wish I did, cuz it looks like such fun! :-)
Gan isn't stupid. So there. Just because Avon's a genious doesn't
make Gan stupid.
(There, Judith, do I get my oak leaves now? <grin>)
> I resent and dislike the Trek characters cuz they are so dang perfect
> and self-confident. Priggish Picard most of all. Lt. Barkley is the only
> one who engenders any sympathy from the viewers. And he is such a sad
> case that he's nearly a cartoon.
I have to toss in this perfect quote I found on the net when TNG was
but a youngster --
"I think that (one of) TNG's problems is that it considers lacking action,
humor and character interplay to be interchangable with cerebral (just like
it often considers civility and lack of conflict interchangable with
friendship)."
- Atsushi Kanamori on rec.arts.startrek, 7 July 1991
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #303
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