From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #278 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/278 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 278 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Merlin [B7L] RE: Merlin, The Magic Begins [B7L] Blake and diversity [B7L] Doubt and belief Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe Re: [B7L] Doubt and belief Re: [B7L] Doubt and belief Re: [B7L] Doubt and belief Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe [B7L] Freedom of religion [B7L] Religion in the B7 universe Re: [B7L] Religion in the B7 universe Re: [B7L] Doubt and belief Re: [B7L] Merlin Re: [B7L] Religion in the B7 universe [B7L] small ads ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:20:06 -0800 (PST) From: Sue Clerc To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Merlin Message-ID: <19981103222006.25477.rocketmail@send201.yahoomail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In response to Carol's query: "Merlin" aired here in New Haven, CT on October 23rd. It was on Ch. 8, which I think is a CBS affiliate. I couldn't tape (and was hoping someone else had so I could beg a copy) because my VCR was otherwise engaged. I did watch sections of it...Oh dear. Well, it was no worse than Hammer House of Horror. 8-) As far as I know, only the movie has aired and not episodes of a series. Sue blake4fr@yahoo.com http://pages.cthome.net/blakes7 _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:50:00 -0500 From: "Roberts, Patricia " To: "\"space-city@world.std.com\" " , "\"blakes7@lysator.liu.se\" " Subject: [B7L] RE: Merlin, The Magic Begins Message-Id: <199811031556.QAA06342@hanna.lysator.liu.se> Content-Type: text/plain For anyone living in South Jersey and who uses Garden State Cable, Merlin will be shown twice: Sunday, 8 November, on WGTW, Channel 19, at 7:00 PM and also: Wednesday, 11 November, on WGTW, Channel 19, at 9:00 PM Judith, I'll be taping the episode on Sunday evening and also will tape it again on Wednesday. See you at E-Con. Pat patricia.roberts@L-3Com.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 18:39:08 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Blake and diversity Message-ID: <19981104023910.23698.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain sayeth Taina: >I don't think Blake would have approved of all kinds of diversity. I >see him as fighting primarily for individual freedoms, and the value >placed on these can vary a lot from culture to culture. How would he >respond to a society that welcomed and co-operated with Federation >rule, because they valued order and authority well above individual >rights? I think he would simply not understand how people could >voluntarily believe that, and assume that they must be brainwashed. >Any thoughts? I do see this, but it depends on how coercive, let alone how tolerant, we believe Blake to be. Do we assume that he'd be happy to force people to accept what is good for them, and risk becoming very like that which he is fighting against? Or do we assume that, whether or not he thought they were brainwashed, he would be able to accept that here was a planet that, seemingly, desired the status quo? I can't, however, see him leaving the planet without trying to convince them, in the latter case. If you allow for the gaps in my knowledge (I'll find copies of the episodes I haven't watched someday, I hope - transcripts are wonderful but you still need the visual and vocal detail), Blake tended either to work with rebel leaders, like Avalon or Kasabi, or run into a situation by accident where the people of a planet needed help of some kind (Horizon, although Ro could just as easily have chosen not to listen to our heroes, despite the conflict between wanting the best for his people and being grateful to the Federation for his education and training), before the search for Star One. "Countdown" is the only situation I can think of, off-hand, where both apply - he goes to Albion looking for information, and is asked to help the rebels. If he can't help anyone, then he's left with bombing raids on Federation installations, presumably. It might just come down to how manipulative one thinks Blake is. Or better still, in what *way*, can you argue (if you can ) does Blake maneouvre planets, let alone people, into seeing things his way? Regards Joanne Freedom of the press is guaranteed only to those who own one. --A J Leibling. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 19:47:07 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Doubt and belief Message-ID: <19981104034708.4550.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Deborah said: >This is the difference between faith and science, methinks. Science >(proper science anyways) may not know the answers but keeps >trying. And allows, even encourages constant testing and demanding >of proof. As it should. What I should've done is go and look for a dictionary to define "faith". Our Jesuit-educated friend might be happy to tell us that science and religion have some elements in common in that respect. Actually, I have heard that there are a few Jesuit priests who are respected scientists. It's always nice to hear about a balance between the head and the heart. >yet to scientifically prove or disprove the existence of God. I've just been reminded of Deep Thought being told that there was no point to philosophers staying up all night debating the existence of God if the computer could give them His telephone number in the morning. Thank you, Deborah, for inspiring the big smile on my face as I type this. >Where many religions run into problems is when they attempt to >mantle their beliefs in the cloak of science, without the resort to >proper scientific technique, or by selectively utilizing information. >Can't be done, any more than science can prove that God did or did >not create the universe. Meaning creation science, I presume. I believe in God, but I refuse to swallow the Bible whole (you can imagine how bad at being devout I am). Of course there's historical and scientific truth in there, but in the same way as the Iliad - Schliemann found Troy, but not the place of legend. You're more likely to find me on the side of Ian Plimer when it comes to whether or not that rock formation in the Middle East is Noah's ark. One of these days, for all we know, some archaeologist will dig up Sodom and Gomorrah, and find out that Lot's wife is a salt deposit eroded away from surrounding rock. Or there's another equally valid scientific explanation >As one of the "hard core science" mob, no offense taken, just as no >offense is meant to those with their own beliefs. It's just that if I were >religious, my patron saint would be Saint Thomas. I admire a man >who requires proof, especially in the face of extrordinary claims. Good choice for a real scientist. Go ahead and think of him as a model anyway, Deborah. I don't think not being religious should stop you from admiring someone willing to ask questions. My brother the geologist might agree with you, although it's possible that I might have to remind him of who this Thomas person is. Maybe St Thomas should be patron saint of newcomers and outsiders, let alone scientists, because all of them have to ask questions and Thomas was pretty new to the apostles, if I remember correctly (sorry if I'm wrong, I stopped reading the Bible on a regular basis when my family stopped going to church on a regular basis - it meant I didn't have to entertain myself to keep from fidgeting during sermons any longer). A patron saint for Blake and his crew, perhaps? Or would St Nicholas be better, given that they were *sailing* around the stars, and there were two thieves in the crew? Regards Joanne The wicked shall burn in hellfire like a thousand pitchforks to the private parts and all who are non-believers shall eternally shriek in agony. Or there may be Bryan Adams ballad involvement. --Kaz Cooke, The Little Book of Crap. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 08:58:51 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe Message-ID: <363F364B.4726@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison Page wrote: > >Often the spread of religion has to > > do more with trade and access to wealth than the validity of the > > beliefs. Missionaries often understand this all too well. Pehaps this is why a rosary is a string of beads (beads = wealth) > I wonder why some cultures prove more tenacious than others? I believe that in religion, as in war, some peoples are tougher because they have been shaped by a tough land. Witness the tough Mongol hordes - forged on the cold anvil of the high plains - that swept down upon the soft civilization of China. A tough environment breeds a tough people. More recently, witness the Afghanistans resisting the Soviets. Of course, vastly superior technology will usually break that basic rule: witness the soft (disease ridden / resistant) Europeans all but wiping out the hard-bodied American natives. Persecution can strengthen a faith because forces from the outside tend to push in on and therefore concentrate the fervor of the persecuted. Witness early Christianity. And the Federation rebels. The more the Blakes 7 crew was harried, the *less* likely they would abandon their ship and melt into the general populace on some backwater dirtball. The pressure precluded that option. > I wonder why > some religions go underground, while some take on the clothing of the new > religion, and some survive defiantly? This "3 choices" scenario sounds like it could happen in a perfect world. However in messy Earth reality, I suspect that most cultural religions, when confronted with a stronger force of invaders / conquorers did "all of the above" but in different degrees. Probably, like some cornered animal, the response depends on a combination of factors such as the ferocity of the attacker, the terrain, the economy and the overall culture (i.e. how much wealth can be had from either system of behavior). For example, look at the ruler Ro on Horizon. He is no doubt being pressured to give up whatever sort of religion those jungle dwellers held. For a while, the price is right : Federation money for mining yield. A small tip in the scales of reward vs. sacrifice sends the whole arrangement toppling. Just as "the last straw" can cause one to quit a job, leave a marriage, deck a heckler, etc. and from an earlier post by ? > > If there is a religion in B7, I would say the belief in superior > > technology and firepower overrides all else- not freedom of spirit nor > > solace of the soul but the reality of survival, and the immediacy of > > placating desires. That sounds like the current religion of the U.S. Consumer Society Which prompts me to share this quote (source forgotten). However, my note at the bottom says, "Why we prefer unreality to that trash (unreality being story: B7 universe - or Xena - or Middle Earh - or insert fave alternate "I have a real, honorable purpose in life" reality) "It's hard to imagine a culture less concerned than ours with the things that make life worth living. Much of what we esteem as life enhancing and pleasure giving tends toward the childishly self-destructive: fast cars, goopy cheese snacks, prolonged television viewing, [aside: watching Blakes 7 episodes multiple times is excluded and reclassified as a cultish form of religious worship], compulsive shopping, playing with guns, heavy drinking, indiscriminate sex, to name a few. These are the fruits of liberty in our time, so liberty itself begins to seem a rather trashy thing. The everyday world of the U.S. seems designed to enable us to dwell in a condition of ever-diminished humanity." OK, I'm stepping down off my soapbox now, the Philospher Pat P ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 07:29:44 EST From: AChevron@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Doubt and belief Message-ID: <2bc0099e.364048b8@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-11-03 22:49:24 EST, you write: << Meaning creation science, I presume. I believe in God, but I refuse to swallow the Bible whole >> Creationism and the infallability of the Bible are two more obvious points here. As you said, the Bible is an interesting historical document but the idea that it is a literal translation of the word of God strains credulity. A God who enjoins peace but cheerfully orders genocide? A God of love who sends a wild animal to tear apart a group of children? And of course, there's the problem of which religion is the "correct" one. Is Mohammed correct? What about the Hindu? The animist/nature religions? Which form of Christianity, and how far can one veer from the tenets of the "true" religion and still be assured of a reward in the afterlife? Questioning and testing are the only tools we have to determine which might be the correct road. It is not an infallable system; people cheat, we don't ask the right questions, we misinterpret the answers. But it is the only system that has managed to improve the human condition, even if it can't assure us of what will happen to us when we die. Religion is ultimately like the fist striking the nose. Your right to it is absolute; your right to inflict it on others stops just before contact with the other person's body. Which doesn't rule out discussion; just make sure both sides can agree to disagree without rersorting to condemnations to hellfire if one side doesn't like the way the discussion goes. My head hurts. It's too early for this kind of thinking. E-Con! E-Con! E- Con! Ahhh, that's better.............. Deborah Rose ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:39:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Doubt and belief Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 4 Nov 1998 AChevron@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-11-03 22:49:24 EST, you write: > > << Meaning creation science, I presume. I believe in God, but I refuse to > swallow the Bible whole >> > > > Creationism and the infallability of the Bible are two more obvious points > here. As you said, the Bible is an interesting historical document but the > idea that it is a literal translation of the word of God strains credulity. A > God who enjoins peace but cheerfully orders genocide? A God of love who sends > a wild animal to tear apart a group of children? Not to mention the problem that Christianity existed before the Bible, so how can the Bible be the foundation of Christian belief? Iain ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 13:56:17 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Doubt and belief Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Joanne MacQueen wrote: > Deborah said: > >This is the difference between faith and science, methinks. Science > >(proper science anyways) may not know the answers but keeps >trying. > And allows, even encourages constant testing and demanding >of proof. > > As it should. What I should've done is go and look for a dictionary to > define "faith". Our Jesuit-educated friend might be happy to > tell us that science and religion have some elements in common in that > respect. I'm a scientist and pretty much a hardcore atheist. One of the great things about a Catholic education is that it successfully innoculates you against any other religion. I really don't think science requires any sort of faith in the religious sense. I can't really put it any better than Feynman: "People are easy to fool, and the easiest person to fool is yourself. Science is a way of not fooling yourself." > Actually, I have heard that there are a few Jesuit priests who > are respected scientists. It's always nice to hear about a balance > between the head and the heart. The Society of Jesus is generally regarded as the most intellectual order in the Church (this is not always seen as a good thing, hence the adjective "Jesuitical"). They have a tradition of doing science, particularly astronomy, going back to before Galileo. If asked, they would most likely describe their motivation as worshipping God by trying to more fully understand and appreciate the marvels of His creation. In my view, there is a fundamental incompatibility between science and religion. My experience of scientists who have some religious faith is that they keep their science and religion in different mental compartments, and don't allow the attitudes of one compartment to leak into the other. > > > Meaning creation science, I presume. I believe in God, but I refuse to > swallow the Bible whole I imagine this would be impossible anyway, unless you used a bible with really really small print. Iain ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 14:00:29 GMT From: mjsmith@tcd.ie (Murray (TCD)) To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe Message-Id: <199811041400.OAA12382@dux1.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Pat, I agree with your assertion that 'Persecution can strengthen a faith because forces from the outside tend to push in on and therefore concentrate the fervor of the persecuted', which is certainly true regarding the early Christians; one early Christian writer said that the blood of the martyrs was 'the seed of the church'. There is also no doubt that this would also be true with regard to certain rebel groups, but _not_ to the B7 crew. The only 'true believers' are Blake and Cally; the others are involved for various different reasons, but none of them involve any principled opposition to the Federation. They are criminals, after all. Villa, in 'Duel', mentioned the fact that the Federation would hunt them down until the day they died. He was aware that, as they did more damage to the Federation, the latter would devote more effort to hunting them down. The strategy outlined by Avon in 'Cygnus Alpha', of abandoning the ship and using the wealth on it to 'melt into the general populace on some backwater dirtball' would be impossible, as they would be too hated, and the rewards offered for their death and capture would be too large. This explains, I believe, Avon's reason for taking up Blake's mantle in the fourth season. He and the others know that the only to stop themselves being hunted is to win; 'In the end, winning is the only safety'. I must, as I said, disagree strongly with any equation of the B7 crew with the early Christians, as most of them could only claim that they were being persecuted by the Federation for offences which they _did_ commit, and which contained no political or religious elements. Yours, Murray ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 06:18:25 PST From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Freedom of religion Message-ID: <19981104141825.15548.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Joanne: >I hope that I've managed not to offend either the devout or the >hard-core science mob, let alone anyone in between, because we need >all in the world. Including (and here's the paradox) those who don't share that enlightened viewpoint. I'm sure there are many people in Afghanistan today who would adopt a different attitude. -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 06:58:30 PST From: "Rob Clother" To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se, mjsmith@tcd.ie Subject: [B7L] Religion in the B7 universe Message-ID: <19981104145830.19797.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Murray: >I must, as I said, disagree strongly with any equation of the B7 >crew with the early Christians, as most of them could only claim >that they were being persecuted by the Federation for offences which >they _did_ commit, and which contained no political or religious >elements. Again, I'm paraphrasing what I've read here, and my understanding may be flawed, so someone please point it out if I'm way off the mark. I understand that one of the most notorious persecutions, the "Great Persecution" of the Emperor Diocletian, which lasted from 303 to 305AD, was initiated because large numbers of Christians were refusing to engage in military service -- which was an offence according to the constitution of the day. Other persecutions, such as the persecution of Marcus Aurelius (r. 161-180), remain controversial to this day. It has been said of Marcus Aurelius, for example, that "his only crime was to deny Christians the power to torment their fellow citizens." Hm. I'm getting more than a little controversial myself. I'd better start digging up references. :-) Cheers, -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:04:17 GMT From: mjsmith@tcd.ie (Murray (TCD)) To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Religion in the B7 universe Message-Id: <199811041604.QAA20893@dux1.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Rob, The reason why I reject any equation of the B7 crew with the early Christians was that most of them were justly convicted of offences which they did commit, and which were contrary to Chrisitan teaching. Smuggling (Jenna), theft (Avon and Villa), and murder (or perhaps manslaughter)(Gan) would be crimes in the opinion of any sincere Christian, although many would believe the Federation's penalty (transportation for life) to be excessive. After all, unlike at Blake's trial, there are no cover ups. In 'The Way Back', when Blake first tells Jenna and Villa of his innocence, the latter is quite cynical, saying that they were all the victims of a miscarriage of justice. This I take to be an admission of the crimes he committed. None of the others ever claimed that they were framed. It makes me wonder that perhaps certain rebel groups had little or nothing to do with Blake on the grounds that he had criminal followers who were 'lowering' the tone of the fight against the Federation! Yours, Murray ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:23:52 EST From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Doubt and belief Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Iain wrote << Not to mention the problem that Christianity existed before the Bible, so how can the Bible be the foundation of Christian belief? >> Orthodox thought sees the Bible somewhat differently than some of the other Christian groups. For us, the Bible is merely one part of Holy Tradition, although a very important part. The teachings of the Saints and Church Fathers help us to interpret and understand the Bible. For your other point, that the New Testament was not written immediately after the crucifixion, or perhaps even during Jesus' life, I know this does bother some people. My view on this is that there was too much going on at that time to do much writing. Also, sometimes we see things more clearly after the fact, so perhaps there is even some advantage to the wait. Finally, the Holy Spirit was with the writers, helping them to synthesize the most crucial parts of Jesus' life and teachings. This wait-time and the fact that everyone sees and remembers things differently is, of course, the cause for the various discrepancies in the accounts. However, again, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and with the help of the Church Fathers, we can work around these problems, using the Bible to bring us closer to God. Oh dear, I think I've written a sermon. I hope no one minds! Gail G. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 07:59:17 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Merlin Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sue Clerc said: > "Merlin" aired here in New Haven, CT on October 23rd. It was on Ch. > 8, which I think is a CBS affiliate. I couldn't tape (and was hoping > someone else had so I could beg a copy) because my VCR was otherwise > engaged. I did watch sections of it...Oh dear. Well, it was no worse > than Hammer House of Horror. 8-) As far as I know, only the movie has > aired and not episodes of a series. The only review I've had of it to date tended to agree with you. He said Gareth Thomas and Jason Connery were excellent but the editing was dire. The plot was virtually non-existent. Although they've been talking about making a series, it just seems to be hype for shareholders, they certainly haven't filmed any. If the movie's this bad, it probably explains why they haven't made any and also why it's been aired so erratically and without any major publicity. The editing was known to be bad way back when. I beleve they actually re-edited some of it, so heavens know what the first version was like. I still want to see it though. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:21:57 EST From: AChevron@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Religion in the B7 universe Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-11-04 10:02:53 EST, you write: << I understand that one of the most notorious persecutions, the "Great Persecution" of the Emperor Diocletian, which lasted from 303 to 305AD, was initiated because large numbers of Christians were refusing to engage in military service -- >> My own memories on this are a bit hazy, but this sounds almost right. By and large, the Romans were very tolerent of other religions, and many of the persecutions had highly political flavers to them(i.e. Nero blaming the Christians for the fire). In any event, the persecutions were haphazard, relatively short-term, and except perhaps in the 1st century a.d. did not seriously threaten the growing religion. When the Church became established enough to gain political power, on the other hand, they proved much more adept at supressing things they didn't like... D. Rose ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:01:24 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] small ads Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII The small ads section on my web page seems to be getting very little use at the moment and I'm half tempted to drop it. It's there for people who want to buy and sell second-hand zines and it's a free service. Use it or lose it... Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #278 **************************************