From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #295 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: <blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se> archive/volume00/295 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 295 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ] Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ Mistral <mistral@centurytel.net> ] Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ Mac4781@aol.com ] Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.co ] Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ] Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ Mistral <mistral@centurytel.net> ] [B7L] Had to be seen to be ... belie [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ] [B7L] I didn't say he *paid* for the [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ] [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ] [B7L] Planning and acting skills (wa [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ] [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1) [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ] [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1) [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ] Re: [B7L] Had to be seen to be ... b [ Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@power ] Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1) [ Mistral <mistral@centurytel.net> ] [B7L] Dorian and Avon] [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ] Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1) [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ] Dayna (was Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? [ Mistral <mistral@centurytel.net> ] Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1) [ Mistral <mistral@centurytel.net> ] Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1) [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ] Re: [B7L] bfi poll [ Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@comp ] Re: [B7L] Review: Travis 2 miniature [ Jacqueline Thijsen <inquisitioner@w ] Re: [B7L] Had to be seen to be ... b [ "Christine+Steve" <cgorman@idirect. ] Re: [B7L] Had to be seen to be ... b [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ] Re: [B7L] I didn't say he *paid* for [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ] Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ] Re: [B7L] Planning and acting skills [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ] Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.n ] [B7L] cult TV [ Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com ] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:45:26 -0400 From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net> To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...) Message-ID: <007f01c03c82$ecb6ec80$e1694e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally said: > I love that line in Horizon, the quiet satisfaction of his "I am not alone > after all". To me, it didn't sound like "quiet satisfaction," it sounded like the "oh, bugger" was silent. > Marian said: > <In Time Squad Gan confides in Jenna about his limiter and she's very > sympathetic. (More than we see her to anyone else except Blake.) In that > scene they interact more with each other than either of them ever does with > Avon, IMHO.> Jenna also says that she's thinking seriously of resigning her job (all mod cons plus stock options) and Gan says that Blake wouldn't stop her-- a very generous way of interpreting Blake's "my way or highway" statement to Avon earlier in the same episode. Sally: >He stays wary of Blake - > understandable as, while Vila and Cally are prepared to take him as he is, > Blake has the irritating habit of asking more of him than Avon wishes to > give.> One thing you can say for Vila (and of later, This Space for Rent Cally but not Guerilla Cally): he doesn't initiate a lot of plans with a high capacity for fatality. > > >He compounds this with a habit of turning his back on the very > person he *is* talking at or who's talking to him (particularly in the third > series, I counted up the number one time, and it's fairly impressive). But the blocking of B7 episodes is often very peculiar--hardly anyone actually talks TO anyone. -(Y) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 19:27:28 -0700 From: Mistral <mistral@centurytel.net> To: B7 lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...) Message-ID: <39F3A210.B969B657@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dana Shilling wrote: > > Sally said: > > I love that line in Horizon, the quiet satisfaction of his "I am not alone > > after all". > To me, it didn't sound like "quiet satisfaction," it sounded like the "oh, > bugger" was silent. I don't see any reason it can't be both, which IMHO it is. Avon is very aware of his own ambivalence coming to the fore in this episode. > >He compounds this with a habit of turning his back on the very > > person he *is* talking at or who's talking to him (particularly in the > third > > series, I counted up the number one time, and it's fairly impressive). > But the blocking of B7 episodes is often very peculiar--hardly anyone > actually talks TO anyone. Play fair, Dana, blocking is out of bounds ;-) apart from that, I have to agree with Sally on this one - it's not unusual to hear one of my friends say 'She's not talking to you; she's looking at you, so she must be talking to me.' Mistral ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 22:30:35 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...) Message-ID: <fb.cae9d22.2724fccb@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally wrote: > As I said, IMHO he talks *at* them, not *to* them (yes even when and > especially when it's not crisis/'work' related. I understand that you were giving your opinion, and I was providing my view. I think Avon was great friends with the third-season crew. Avon voluntarily spent leisure time with them. And as Dorian aptly pointed out, the lot of them had bonded. > I couldn't - you couldn't. My Avon is more than capable of it, but he isn't > you or me. On the evidence on screen, he's almost totally indifferent to > them as people. But you've also said that DEATH-WATCH Avon isn't your Avon. Your Avon is someone who is somewhat edited from the character who actually appears on the screen. > A very *stupid* medical doctor. What do you base that judgment on? The few minutes we see of him, he appears to be bright, knowledgeable and capable. > Okay, we'll amend my sentence if we must. It's clear that none of the > others are up to thinking of anything half-way sensible for themselves. That's terribly insulting to all of them, and to Avon. He's not so stupid that he's going to place his life in the hands of a team of half-wits. He appeared to respect his fourth-season shipmates, their abilities, and their skills. None of them were perfect, including Avon, but they were all exceptionally capable. > As for your other examples - both Tarrant and Soolin were quite good at > acting on the fly, swiftly and without too much thought or planning It takes a very bright person to be able to act swiftly and successfully. Anyone who can do that, can also do long-range planning. Both Tarrant's past and Soolin's past suggest people who worked on their own, made plans, and carried them out. You don't survive as a deserter or an eight-year old orphan without having wits about you. > Which > is why they went along with Avon even when they [a] knew he'd kept stuff > from them, [b] really had misgivings or even disliked what he was suggesting I disagree. Anything any of them might have come up with would have included a degree of risk. They were all willing to accept some risk. Vila less than the others. <g> If Avon's plans were more risky than they were comfortable with, they were capable of opposing him. We saw that when Dayna and Tarrant blew up the Muller android. Betty wrote: > Actually, I do think Tarrant & Soolin's goofy drugged-up act is better > than Avon's innocent act, but that ain't exactly saying much... However, you haven't given Tarrant extra points for keeping a straight face when he did his "bald dwarf" lines in DAWN. I think that performance was Tony Award material. > No, actually, come to think of it, *Blake* does a really good > bit of improvisational acting with the Andromedans... I agree; Blake was a very good actor. Which was unfortunate. It was his bounty hunter performance that got him killed. > I think this is a fault they *all* suffer from to one degree or another, > actually. (Though it may not be *entirely* a personality thing... You > could probably make an argument that the kind of life they're leading > encourages this sort of thing, if only because at some point people are > going to reach the limit of their ability to stay ahead of an > intrinsically unpredictable environment.) You've made an excellent point about why none of them had much opportunity to do long-range planning. It was all they could do to stay half a day ahead of the executioner. Also, the odds against them were overwhelming. There simply weren't any surefire plans that any of them could have come up with. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:59:26 EST From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...) Message-ID: <F5IHNkjgJKVApwOLZCH0000bf99@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Mac4781@aol.com >But you've also said that DEATH-WATCH Avon isn't your Avon. He might be Mistral's. <looks around warily> No, I don't think I'll get on that particular hobby-horse just now, so lead him back to the stable, please, and give him a few lumps of sugar. Or maybe an apple. Regards Joanne _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 22:10:49 -0600 From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...) Message-ID: <39F3BA49.474930C@sdc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Responding to Sally, Carol Mc wrote: > But you've also said that DEATH-WATCH Avon isn't your Avon. Your Avon is > someone who is somewhat edited from the character who actually appears on the > screen. I think that's true for *everybody's* Avon, though... And responding to me: > However, you haven't given Tarrant extra points for keeping a straight face > when he did his "bald dwarf" lines in DAWN. I think that performance was > Tony Award material. Oh, I hereby freely grant them to him! IMO, that's probably Tarrant's best line, ever. (Pity it had to come in such an otherwise crappy episode.) > > No, actually, come to think of it, *Blake* does a really good > > bit of improvisational acting with the Andromedans... > > I agree; Blake was a very good actor. Which was unfortunate. It was his > bounty hunter performance that got him killed. [Wince] Ouch. Too true. > You've made an excellent point about why none of them had much opportunity to > do long-range planning. It was all they could do to stay half a day ahead of > the executioner. Also, the odds against them were overwhelming. There > simply weren't any surefire plans that any of them could have come up with. Oddly enough, it seems to me that the *best* plans they came up with tended to be the ones that failed most spectacularly. (I *still* think the Warlord alliance was a mighty fine idea, in principle.) -- Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/ "I love hearing that lonesome wail of the train whistle as the magnitude of the frequency of the wave changes due to the Doppler effect." -- Sidney Harris ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 21:34:32 -0700 From: Mistral <mistral@centurytel.net> To: B7 lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...) Message-ID: <39F3BFD8.12660F6@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joanne wrote: > > >From: Mac4781@aol.com > >But you've also said that DEATH-WATCH Avon isn't your Avon. > > He might be Mistral's. <looks around warily> No, I don't think I'll get on > that particular hobby-horse just now, so lead him back to the stable, > please, and give him a few lumps of sugar. Or maybe an apple. No, I thought I'd been clear that I'm <ahem> Not Terribly Fond of Deathwatch; I have to distract myself by looking at, er, Other Things. Mind you I can't bring myself to throw out any of the eps; makes it more realistic, after all, one doesn't usually like everything about one's friends; and even Deathwatch has some nice moments - Vila chasing Cally off the flight deck, Dayna not wanting to share Vinni's senses, Avon's reaction to Max shaking his hand, for example. Mistral ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:52:29 GMT From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Had to be seen to be ... believed? Message-ID: <LAW-F281YP9sKYrZfNi00008eb9@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I guess if we couldn't Suspend Disbelief a looonng way, we wouldn’t be fans of this show. However, I was thinking about this ... What do people have most problems swallowing? The science? (DotG, for instance - Black hole ahoy! Or Justin's experiments?) The SFX? (actually, the Andromedan's addiction to Kitchen front ship design never bothered me ...) The characters? (Now this is *definitely* my field - trying to take Governor le Grande seriously ... oh dear oh dear). So when do *you* hear that little mental 'twang' when said suspension gives way entirely? (And no fair writing 'when reading one of Sally's longer posts', thank you :-) Stick to the script.) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:53:05 GMT From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] I didn't say he *paid* for them ... Message-ID: <LAW-F262jT3XOYR00Hg00008e89@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A question. Who else thinks that Vila would pick up all sorts of dreadful, wonderful souvenirs on all the more civilised planets we *don't* see Our Heroes visiting? _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:55:22 GMT From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...) Message-ID: <LAW-F194Upm0RnzXotJ00008816@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dana says : <Sally: He stays wary of Blake - understandable as, while Vila and Cally are prepared to take him as he is, Blake has the irritating habit of asking more of him than Avon wishes to give.> Errr ... no, that was Marian :-) and I disagreed with her. Dana goes on: <One thing you can say for Vila (and of later, This Space for Rent Cally but not Guerilla Cally): he doesn't initiate a lot of plans with a high capacity for fatality.> Actually, does Vila initiate any plans *at all*?? (Well, I'd guess he put forward quite a few involving bars, rest centres and luxury resorts full of badly-secured riches, but for some reason they never got very far with either of his Leaders, Fearless or Downright-Frightening). <The blocking of B7 episodes is often very peculiar--hardly anyone actually talks TO anyone.> There's some rather strange angles, true. I believe that the flight deck of the Liberator was extremely difficult to shoot. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:56:36 GMT From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Planning and acting skills (was Re: Avon as loner?) Message-ID: <LAW-F1344MHvi6y07vQ0000932c@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Betty wrote: <Responding to Carol Mc, Sally Manton wrote: <Did we watch the same show? > Hey now, play fair, *I* didn't say that ... (what is this, misquote-Sally-week?) <No, actually, come to think of it, *Blake* does a really good bit of improvisational acting with the Andromedans... Yet another reason to lament his disappearance.> I'll lament along with you, but I'm not so sure that does count as acting - it's Blake's absolutely-standard gut-reaction to Ugly Authority (and fast thinking to counter those questions). Of course, if you believe he was bluffing when he threatened Kayn, that's a brilliant piece of low-key acting (for that matter, his threatening Travis and Servalan with the Phobon disk ain't bad). This, of course, doesn't quite work if you don't think he *was* bluffing ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:58:03 GMT From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1) Message-ID: <LAW-F272cB9sQFtf2Ty00008eaf@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Carol wrote: <Avon voluntarily spent leisure time with them.> Didn't have a hell of a lot of choice, did he? They're on a big ship out in space and, once he's studied every single circuit on the Liberator (twice), there appears to be precious little for him - or any of them - to *do*. (I think this is especially true at the start of Children of Auron, where he's a million very unpleasant miles away anyway) He played board games with Jenna too - and from the look on his face he was losing - and no one will ever convince me they were great friends. Actually, now that I think of it <veg> board and card games and the like are always a very good way to fill in time with people (like relatives) you don't really have all that much to talk about with ... Sarcophagus indicates fairly strongly that they're all suffering from a bad case of ennui and looking for ways to fill time, of which these would be one (drawing and playing musical instruments very badly being others). There were unquestionably a lot of very dull hours to fill in on the flight deck, especially once someone had taken his damned ball - errr cause - and disappeared. <And as Dorian aptly pointed out, the lot of them had bonded.> Let's not ever-estimate the sleaze-bag's omniscience here - I really *don't* agree with the view that he's got some sort of mystic insight into Our Hero's Hearts. Dorian isn't a telepath or an alien super-being who knows instinctively what people half-way across the galaxy (who would be hard-pressed to express their feelings at gun-point) are feeling, so we don't have to take what he says as Gospel Truth. He doesn't *know* how Avon or the others feel, he's working on what evidence he's picked up as an outsider who's studied them. What Dorian says isn't canon. Yes, I agree there were bonds (the sort that develop between soldiers in a war) but those sort don't have to have much in the way of *personal* attachment to be there. Someone you depend on to survive tends to be important to you even if you can't stand them. <But you've also said that DEATH-WATCH Avon isn't your Avon. Your Avon is someone who is somewhat edited from the character who actually appears on the screen.> 'Death-Watch' Avon isn’t Avon as I know him, true. He's a milk-and-water pudding-person version of the character. But no, I don't think I've edited him, that's not Playing the Game (everything in the series has an explanation. I even manage to explain Power ... albeit as Vila's bad dream) I simply find an explanation for his un-Avonness that I can live with. This (as I have mentioned before) is that Avon develops a tummy bug round about the start of this one (he looks distinctly more sick than he does in episodes where he's *supposed* to, like Orac). 'Tis hard to be your normal svelte-and-sardonic self when you are green around the gills (yes, I know nausea and Other Symptoms don't normally suit the Fantasy Object, but that's not my problem). And why does he agree to join in the whole rather nasty shebang (sorry, but I'm with Cally. I never liked bread and circuses when it was the Romans. I don't like it any better in outer space) with the rest? Because Avon *would not* admit to such a humiliating illness unless absolutely forced to - and a tummy bug isn’t bad enough to force him to. So we get him acting semi-normal (and being thoroughly un-him in the bargain, much to Sally's displeasure.) This also nicely explains him putting on that Matador jacket - when you're feeling cruddy, you don't tend to think too hard about what you're doing first thing in the morning. (PS - Joanne, Mistral, does this let him off the hook?) <What do you base that judgment on? The few minutes we see of him, he appears to be bright, knowledgeable and capable. > The fact that he doesn't see through them in three seconds flat, of course. If 'tis My Opinion that anyone but a half-wit would see through Tarrant (and it is My Opinion, just as it is My Opinion about the slavers in Assassin and would be about Blake in Gambit if we hadn't luckily cut just at the moment he IMHO said "okay you two what the hell are you up to???") then the doctor who didn't see through him is unquestionably a half-wit. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 07:07:30 GMT From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1) Message-ID: <LAW-F262idogkrjeSDb00008e95@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Carol went on: <That's terribly insulting to all of them, and to Avon. He's not so stupid that he's going to place his life in the hands of a team of half-wits.> No it's not, because that's not what I said. As I think you've said about other characters (and I agreed) they're not perfect - they are all of them gifted in their own ways, but they have their faults, lots of faults. And one of them for the Scorpio lot (except Avon) is an inability to think very far ahead. As always, IMHO ... Soolin isn't Wonder Girl - she's a cool, hard-headed sensible woman who's lived a very hard life and tends to go for the immediate short-term advantage (like Dorian, methinks) possibly because that's all she's ever known. After all, look at the way she lets these people take over both the base and the ship without so much as a "they're mine by rights, what do I get in return?" (Actually, one has to wonder if Soolin's inability to think very far ahead isn’t a self-induced thing, born of the fact that for most of her life, doing so was painful and possibly pointless). Vila isn't a Loveable Cockney Alpha-in-disguise - he's a genuine, incorrigible criminal who can actually think as fast as any of the rest of them (from all 4 seasons, including Avon and Blake IMO) when he *has* to - that is, in a crisis. But for the most part he doesn't care for thinking at all, prefers to let things slide because that makes life easier, and his mental fickleness makes him way too easily swayed (Hostage and Voice being prime examples) - he not only doesn't think very far ahead, he changes his mind at nearly every ill wind. Tarrant isn't a Scout-Leader-Sir-Lancelot-Boy-Wonder - he's an exceptionally gifted pilot and extremely, *pragmatically* sharp man who happens to also be short-sighted and almost totally lacking in common sense or the gift of forward thinking. Lives totally in the 'here and very much now'; I don't think the future, his or anyone else's, has any *real* meaning for him. Dayna isn't ... um. Actually she's a very good technician (or so we're told) and someone else can describe her good points 'cause I've never pretended that I can see them. I once said about the first season crew that "they are the human tools Blake has to work with". These are the human tools Avon has. They're a gifted group (actually the whole nine of 'em, Liberator and Scorpio both, are quite extraordinary people, each in his/her own right), but that doesn't mean they are Paragons of All the Virtues, any more than Avon is (or the earlier ones are). <It takes a very bright person to be able to act swiftly and successfully. Anyone who can do that, can also do long-range planning.> That we won’t be able to discuss, since I don’t think it's true at all - the two take hugely different skills (battle or field commanders don't always make good or even adequate war commanders). There's also the opposite type in Travis, who is great at meticulous planning but can never cope when something throws the plan into disarray and he has to come up with something fast. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 02:11:44 -0600 From: Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@powersurfr.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Had to be seen to be ... believed? Message-Id: <4.1.20001023020945.0093eb00@mail.powersurfr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:52 AM 10/23/00 +0000, Sally Manton wrote: >So when do *you* hear that little mental 'twang' when said suspension gives >way entirely? When Servalan starts crying. -- "How real do you feel, Mrs. Peel?" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 01:30:21 -0700 From: Mistral <mistral@centurytel.net> To: B7 lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1) Message-ID: <39F3F71D.C5126C4E@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > This also nicely explains him putting on that Matador jacket - when you're > feeling cruddy, you don't tend to think too hard about what you're doing > first thing in the morning. > > (PS - Joanne, Mistral, does this let him off the hook?) <g> No. It was in his closet, after all - unless you think he dragged his tummy bug down to the wardrobe room that morning to get something cheerful to wear; but if that's his idea of cheerful... no, I'm sticking to my wardrobe-as-extraversion-of-self-image theory. Besides which, Avon isn't grumpy enough in Deathwatch to be ill. Compare with 'Orac'. I wish he were ill, though - any excuse is better than none. Mistral ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:31:22 GMT From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Dorian and Avon] Message-ID: <LAW-F1718H23KqiReEJ00003b2a@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Ellynne writes: <given the incredible resemblance between Tarrant and his brother (who, you'll recall, had even taken to wearing a rather unconvincing wig to try and downplay it) ...> Actually, one of my non-B7 relatives said to me the other week "the one thing I remember is that the characters all had all these identical relatives," and I sort of looked at him and heard myself say "well, actually, only the ones with curls ..." (Tarrant - Del and Deeta; Blake and Cally and their clones). _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:35:12 GMT From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1) Message-ID: <LAW-F74IhTrBoe2U8QV00000fa6@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mistral wrote: <I'm sticking to my wardrobe-as-extraversion-of-self-image theory.> Do I want to know how this theory works with Dayna and Cally as well? <Besides which, Avon isn't grumpy enough in Deathwatch to be ill.> <grin> how do you tell the difference? (having recently watched bot Orac *and* Redemption ...) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 01:52:55 -0700 From: Mistral <mistral@centurytel.net> To: B7 lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Dayna (was Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1)) Message-ID: <39F3FC67.12F158D7@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > Dayna isn't ... um. Actually she's a very good technician (or so we're > told) and someone else can describe her good points 'cause I've never > pretended that I can see them. She's loyal, pragmatic, not easily frightened of things she can comprehend - the one place I remember her being really frightened is in Rescue, of Dorian's creature. Eager to learn and a self-starter. Takes people at face value - that can be a plus or a minus but I like it in her. Actually cares about her crewmates - yes, they all do to an extent, but Dayna's not afraid to show it; in fact she may very well be the most emotionally healthy and stable of the lot of them. I think she probably had the closest to a normal, nurturing childhood, and the most freedom, which seems to have made her a very strong, open person. (Compare to Soolin who is the same or a very similar personality type, but not nearly as open.) Dayna is most interesting for me when I remember that she's really a very young person who's lived a fairly circumscribed existence, and then she emerges into the wider galaxy in the company of this bunch of rebels and outlaws. Somehow I don't think that's what either Hal Mellanby or Avon had in mind for her, do you? Mistral ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 02:04:14 -0700 From: Mistral <mistral@centurytel.net> To: B7 lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1) Message-ID: <39F3FF0E.B5E77254@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > > Mistral wrote: > <I'm sticking to my wardrobe-as-extraversion-of-self-image theory.> > > Do I want to know how this theory works with Dayna and Cally as well? I don't apply it generally, just to Avon. I do think Dayna's third-series wardrobe adds to her characterization substantially, though. > <Besides which, Avon isn't grumpy enough in Deathwatch to be ill.> > > <grin> how do you tell the difference? (having recently watched bot Orac > *and* Redemption ...) <g> Surely you can see the difference between Orac and Deathwatch? Avon can be as stubborn as the sky is full of stars, when it comes to standing up to torture, but I think he's a complete misery when he's _ill_. And a terrible patient, I think you've said that yourself. Best-case scenario, he hides in his cabin with the door locked. The reason he didn't do that in Orac was because he only trusted himself to man the teleport, but he was quite definite about not wanting any company at it. Mistral ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:58:40 GMT From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 1) Message-ID: <LAW-F7jc0D543TuylJc000011ca@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mistral wrote: <<g> Surely you can see the difference between Orac and Deathwatch?> Yes, but throw his perfectly healthy but less sweet-natured moments from Redemption et al into the mix and it gets a bit harder. Though I suppose one could argue that Doing the Right Thing hurts just as much as stomach-or-tooth-ache ... <Avon can be as stubborn as the sky is full of stars, when it comes to standing up to torture, but I think he's a complete misery when he's _ill_.> Were it serious (even life-threatening), I think he would be okay, accept whatever was necessary and put up with the necessary medical intrusion as gracefully as possible (which of course means not very :-)). But minor and/or embarrassing ailments? Yep. A misery that takes the Bug-That's-Going-Round as a personal insult in the bargain. <And a terrible patient, I think you've said that yourself.> I'm absolutely sure I have, and that just about everyone except Soolin and *maybe* Cally would drive him nuts trying to nurse him (the picture of Jenna or Vila trying to is a great joy). <Best-case scenario, he hides in his cabin with the door locked.> Even better-case scenario, Blake makes Vila unlock the door (do remember, I am a fan of dumping on Avon). To be fair, though, I really can't see many of the rest being much better when just sick and feeling rotten (as apart from in real danger). Possibly Cally and Gan ... maybe Jenna (though it's more fun to try and imagine her a damp rag when sick, it just doesn't work). _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 07:49:51 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] bfi poll Message-ID: <200010230750_MC2-B80E-6C99@compuserve.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Jacqui wrote: >But such persons as Avon are far more 'fun' (and consider - = >why are there several Richard III societies and none for = >Henrys VI & VII etc) I can't now remember if Tudor has a fan club (I did have a close friend w= ho was rather keen on him), but there is one for Henry VI, whose principal a= im as I remember is to campaign for his canonisation. And the RIIIS to whic= h I belong promotes the line that Richard was a non-murdering, hard-working= administrator, though I had a sneaking sympathy with the devil's advocate= s who argued that if he didn't kill his nephews he should have done. The jolly Shakespearean version is fun, but not very canonical. ObB7: there appears to be an affinity between B7 and RIII fandoms. I've found enough people who belong to both to crew a large spaceship called White Surrey. By the way, is there some way we can push the fact that we won the BFI Favourite British Television Programme poll - eg everyone writing in to demand that the BBC show season two could mention it? Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 14:04:37 +0200 From: Jacqueline Thijsen <inquisitioner@wish.net> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com> Subject: Re: [B7L] Review: Travis 2 miniature Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20001023135912.009db0d0@pop3.wish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 16:03 22-10-00 +0100, Julia Jones wrote: >The costume is almost entirely black, of course, but Kelvin's done a >nice job on picking out matt and gloss details on the black, which gives >it interest and makes it more realistic looking. The chest insignia and >barley sugar on the finger are present and correct. The new painting >technique being used on the face gives excellent results. I second all that, and would like to add that IMO Kelvin's done an absolutely astonishing job. >Recommended for those who collect miniatures. And also for FINALACT acolytes. Mine's on the TV now, staring arrogantly across my living room. All it needs is a Servalan to keep it company (hint, hint). Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:26:07 -0400 From: "Christine+Steve" <cgorman@idirect.com> To: "B7 Mailing List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Had to be seen to be ... believed? Message-ID: <005b01c03cf4$dfe83dc0$9f109ad8@cgorman> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton asked : > I guess if we couldn't Suspend Disbelief a looonng way, we wouldn't be fans > of this show. However, I was thinking about this ... > > What do people have most problems swallowing? The science? (DotG, for > instance - Black hole ahoy! Or Justin's experiments?) The SFX? (actually, > the Andromedan's addiction to Kitchen front ship design never bothered me > ...) The characters? (Now this is *definitely* my field - trying to take > Governor le Grande seriously ... oh dear oh dear). I was never that sure about the science behind the auto-repair systems. I could see how an advanced technology could have designed it, but even the Federation had a version, with the defense zone around the original Central Control. On the Liberator it seemed any tiny or huge piece of equipment could be re-created, as long as there was enough available power - only running out of energy in Terminal. It seems that the Liberator could turn energy into mass at will. In Moloch, the alien system there took mass and re-arranged it, which I guess isn't too far from teleport technology (and is also how the replicators in Trek worked), but I'm not too sure about being able to create mass from energy. Steve Dobson. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:31:16 -0600 From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Had to be seen to be ... believed? Message-ID: <39F459C4.53C6E7A4@sdc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > What do people have most problems swallowing? The science? (DotG, for > instance - Black hole ahoy! Or Justin's experiments?) The SFX? (actually, > the Andromedan's addiction to Kitchen front ship design never bothered me > ...) Bad science and bad effects I can usually ignore (indeed, as far as the FX go, I think I tend to mentally edit them into something more convincing). There are occasional times when a particular egregiously bad example of one or the other causes problems for me, though. "Moloch," for instance, manages it on *both* counts. > The characters? (Now this is *definitely* my field - trying to take > Governor le Grande seriously ... oh dear oh dear). Forget Le Grande, the unforgivable character sin in "Voice" was making Ven Glynd into a good guy. > So when do *you* hear that little mental 'twang' when said suspension gives > way entirely? Well, as I mentioned on the Other List recently, there are *two* examples in "Orac," including the one and only bit of aired B7 that I can not, no way, no how, accept as canonical: the "scenes from last week" log entry thing at the beginning. The other one is the end, where Servalan delays letting Travis kill Blake for what are far *too* obviously script reasons and not character reasons. (Which sort of thing happens a lot, admittedly, but usually there's at least *some* in-character justification for it.) -- Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/ "I love hearing that lonesome wail of the train whistle as the magnitude of the frequency of the wave changes due to the Doppler effect." -- Sidney Harris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:32:03 -0600 From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] I didn't say he *paid* for them ... Message-ID: <39F459F3.6F0C14B1@sdc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > A question. Who else thinks that Vila would pick up all sorts of dreadful, > wonderful souvenirs on all the more civilised planets we *don't* see Our > Heroes visiting? I like the idea of him collecting snow globes, personally... -- Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/ "I love hearing that lonesome wail of the train whistle as the magnitude of the frequency of the wave changes due to the Doppler effect." -- Sidney Harris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:35:35 -0600 From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...) Message-ID: <39F45AC7.8049D666@sdc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > Actually, does Vila initiate any plans *at all*?? (Well, I'd guess he put > forward quite a few involving bars, rest centres and luxury resorts full of > badly-secured riches, but for some reason they never got very far with > either of his Leaders, Fearless or Downright-Frightening). Vila plans that actually got acted on: Taking some time off to watch the Teal-Vandor fight. Going to Del 10 for some atmospheric beta particles (although that got interrupted). Oh, and that asteroid thing, I suppose... -- Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/ "I love hearing that lonesome wail of the train whistle as the magnitude of the frequency of the wave changes due to the Doppler effect." -- Sidney Harris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:40:48 -0600 From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Planning and acting skills (was Re: Avon as loner?) Message-ID: <39F45C00.DCEC52AF@sdc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > Betty wrote: > <Responding to Carol Mc, Sally Manton wrote: <Did we watch the same show? > > > Hey now, play fair, *I* didn't say that ... (what is this, > misquote-Sally-week?) Oops, sorry. Got a bit carried away trying to quote you and Carol at the same time... > <No, actually, come to think of it, *Blake* does a really good bit of > improvisational acting with the Andromedans... Yet another reason to lament > his disappearance.> > > I'll lament along with you, but I'm not so sure that does count as acting - > it's Blake's absolutely-standard gut-reaction to Ugly Authority (and fast > thinking to counter those questions). Well, the fast thinking impresses me the most, but I also thought he was doing a reasonably good Travis impression. (Well, OK, maybe not Travis *specifically*, but "arrogant and ruthless Federation type," yes.) > Of course, if you believe he was bluffing when he threatened Kayn, that's a > brilliant piece of low-key acting (for that matter, his threatening Travis > and Servalan with the Phobon disk ain't bad). This, of course, doesn't > quite work if you don't think he *was* bluffing ... I'm *still* not sure whether he was or not... -- Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/ "I love hearing that lonesome wail of the train whistle as the magnitude of the frequency of the wave changes due to the Doppler effect." -- Sidney Harris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 08:08:50 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net> To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...) Message-ID: <001801c03d1a$11be44a0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Y'know, it's rather fun watching a bit of fur flying around on the Lyst whilst knowing that just for once I had nothing to do with it:) As I recall, Avon was nearly always in someone or other's company when we see him, and if he was on his own then there were usually solid plot reasons. Also, no one ever said, "Where's that little weasel hiding now?" or "Maybe he thinks we smell funny." Any ideas of Avon spending most of his time brooding in isolation and shunning the proximity of his fellow crew probably come from reading too much fanfic. It wasn't in the series. Maybe the notion of Avon-as-loner arose from the way he can distance himself emotionally from people (and situations in general) even when he's in close physical proximity to them. Hence the notion (quite wrong, IMO) of poor ickle wounded Avon hiding in his shell from the nasty big world. Sounds more to me like an arrogant big-nosed bastard sneering down his snoot at the brainless riffraff whose company he hav to kepe ect. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:36:23 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com> To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se> Subject: [B7L] cult TV Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-1023093623-d07Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Roger Murray Leech just had to cancel Cult TV due to work committments. (which still leaves lots of other interesting people - it's a good convention) Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #295 **************************************