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blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 278
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love [ "Doraleen McArthur" <d.mcarthur@wor ]
[B7L] zines going out of print [ Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com ]
Re: [[B7L] Re: Did Avon hallucinate [ Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape. ]
Re: [[B7L] Re: Amount impacted by St [ Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape. ]
[B7L] Re: the old Star One argument [ Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net> ]
[B7L] Re: Blake and Jenna [ Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net> ]
[B7L] Some more Jackie Pearce news [ "David A McIntee" <Master@allisurve ]
Re: [B7L] Something else about Star [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
Re: [B7L] Amount impacted by Star On [ Kai V Karmanheimo <karmanhe@cc.hels ]
Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
Re: [B7L] Re: Amount impacted by Sta [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
Re: [B7L] Something else about Star [ Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@power ]
Re: [B7L]RE: Blake's 7 Movie [ "Minnie" <minnie@picknowl.com.au> ]
Re: [B7L]RE: Blake's 7 Movie [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
[B7L] Rontane 5 [ "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary ]
Re: [B7L]RE: Blake's 7 Movie [ "Minnie" <minnie@picknowl.com.au> ]
Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ Steve Kilbane <steve@whitecrow.demo ]
Re: [B7L] Something else about Star [ Alison Page <alison_page@becta.org. ]
Re: [B7L]RE: Blake's 7 Movie [ Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana. ]
[B7L] Another Zenith [ Jacqueline Thijsen <inquisitioner@w ]
Re: [B7L] Another Zenith [ "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.con ]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 22:30:53 -0400
From: "Doraleen McArthur" <d.mcarthur@worldnet.att.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love
Message-ID: <000201c02e2e$41948680$5ef35a0c@oemcomputer>
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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From: Natasa Tucev <tucev@tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu>
>
> Blake could have easily recruited his crew from REAL freedom fighters such
> as Kasabi and Avalon (and Cally - why are they all women?).
Because it lets the writers have Strong Female Characters without
actually having to keep them around and deal with them. (Poor Cally.)
--Katie
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:32:41 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Cc: Freedom City <freedom-city@blakes-7.org>
Subject: [B7L] zines going out of print
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-1004073241-b49Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Star One and The Way Back (not to be confused with the Long Way Back) are now
out of print.
Star Two is down to four copies.
Star Three is out of print in the UK, but I think there's still a copy with
Linda Knights.
Most of the rest should be fine. I'm desperate for shelf space and letting the
oldest titles go out of print is the best way to make space for new ones.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: 4 Oct 00 12:04:51 PDT
From: Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [[B7L] Re: Did Avon hallucinate Callys death]
Message-ID: <20001004190451.9672.qmail@www0b.netaddress.usa.net>
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In fact, of the deaths, a fair number are 'reported' rather than 'observe=
d'
even Gan's death is ambiguous (he was trapped, but the Federation were go=
ing
to rescue Servalan and Travis): Jenna's death is reported by Blake, but h=
e
might be misleading Tarrant for his own purposes. Cally's death is report=
ed:
but Avon, like the rest of the group probably has no more than general fi=
rst
aid skills (though Tarrant may have learnt more in military training) so =
might
misread what he sees even if not clouded by exhaustion etc. Travis is alm=
ost
certainly dead (shades of Rasputin): he was shot by Blake & Avon, fell do=
wn a
deep hole into a 'green vortex' and the planet was then attacked by the
Andromedans (was it the planet itself destroyed or merely the base: the
phrasing is ambiguous). =
"Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> wrote:
On Tue, 03 Oct 2000 17:46:52 -0700 Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
writes:
> > Also, hallucinations are not necessarily based on what the person =
> _wants_
> > to see. However, skipping this and the fact that I could tell you =
> some
> > stories about people who had bad reactions to medications who, I =
> think I
> > could make a fair case, didn't _want_ to see floating heads, =
> attacking
> > armies of ants, or tree shadows doing very strange things up and =
> down the
> > wall, if we are going with what Avon is _afraid_ of or what he =
> _expects_,
> > I think worse case scenarios must have been rather high in his =
> mind.
> > =
> I can agree with that. I picture him climbing through rubble to =
> reach
> her, seeing her body slumped over... he *plans* on going all the way
> over to her and checking her pulse... and his mind, stilla ddled by
> drugs and lack of sleep races ahead of his actions. He can feel her
> thin, frail looking arm as he checks for some sign of life.. =
> meanwhile,
> he's gripping some piping that has fallenfrom the wall as he slips =
> on
> some plaster. His own heart is pounding and the one light still =
> intact
> fizzles out as the wiring finally shorts out. Heaccidentally turns
> around, stands... he is confused a bit as to how he got there and =
> back,
> but then he can't remember every step he took along the way, anyhow.
> There is a hint of smoke in the air. Cally's dead. He saw it, he =
> felt
> her cold, pulseless arm (didn't he?). Time to hurry back or he may =
> never
> find his way out again.
> =
Ooh! I _love_ this!
Ellynne
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: 4 Oct 00 12:09:02 PDT
From: Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [[B7L] Re: Amount impacted by Star One (was Anna & the nature of love)]
Message-ID: <20001004190902.15822.qmail@www0w.netaddress.usa.net>
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Wouldn't there be equivalents of Star One 'facing' the Magellenic clouds =
as
well - they are nearer
B7Morrigan@aol.com wrote:
In a message dated 10/3/00 1:41:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, =
Julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk writes:
> In message <f.9fd362e.2708dbb6@aol.com>, B7Morrigan@aol.com writes
> >Yet "Star One" seems a rather large contridiction to this theory, a =
> >willingness to kill millions of people to destroy the Federation.
> >
> We could go through that one again, but it's less than a year since th=
e
> last time - so I'll just summarize, and ask "where is your evidence th=
at
> millions of people would be killed by the destruction of Star One?"
> Cally says "many, many people", which is not the same thing at all, an=
d
> the destruction shown in that episode is due to the Andromedans
> manipulating the programming of Star One to create havoc, not to its
> destruction. =
The issue being discussed was the opinion of ucev@tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu tha=
t =
Blake had not done anything selfish throughout the series.
> Correct me if I'm
> wrong. I also think the script writers (most of them) make it clear th=
at
he
> is much more driven by the love for mankind than by the hatred for the=
> Federation. This is more than obvious when he puts a plague warning in=
to
> Fosforon's orbit, rather than to use this opportunity to kill Servalan=
(as
> 'somebody else' suggests they should do).
I disagreed, citing Star One as an example of Blake's choice to destroy =
Federation control at the risk of lives. I cited million of lives, rathe=
r =
than "many, many lives" based on what I heard in "The Keeper" =
TRAVIS: Look, Star One is the computer control center. It controls the =
climate on more than two hundred worlds, communications, security, food =
production, it controls them all. It is the key to our very lives. Think =
of =
all that power. =
If each of those 200 worlds averaged 5,000 lives, then we are speaking of=
=
1,000,000 lives (human, humanoid, or other), just on those worlds. This =
does
not include other planets that might be dependent upon those 200 for food=
or =
other imports. As far as I know, there are no facts that suggest exactly=
how
many lives were expected to be impacted by Blake's planned destruction of=
=
Star One, but it is clearly a significant number. =
I do not consider Blake's decision to destroy Star One selfish, but I fir=
mly =
disagree that he was driven more by a love for mankind than a hatred of t=
he =
Federation. =
Morrigan
Protons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic!
____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home=
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 11:39:27 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: the old Star One argument
Message-ID: <39DB795F.2778@jps.net>
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> o, the point would seem that some of us believe that Blake was trying (and
> very well might have succeeded) to save many *more* people than he would
> have killed. Some others believe that he'd kill half the galaxy for the sake
> of his own ego and a handful of freed survivors.
>
I'd say it's more likely that many of us, thinking in terms of today's
populations, think "millions" would be a conservative estimate of people
killed by global-scale natural diasters on more than one planet... and
took the context of the natural disasters already caused by Star One's
misuse to be an indication of what still might happen with it's
destruction. You can't whip away a controlling system and not expect a
backlash. On the other hand, I never thought Blake would have killed
more people than he helped.
Well, let's see, I believe there's over a hundred members on this Lyst,
and none of us believe we have perfect governments. Hands up everyone
who's willing to die anonymously when I set off a bomb to get rid off
your current administration!
Well, I doubt many people think their government is as bad as the
Federation, and I'm not really going to set off any bombs. But the
destruction of Star One was expected to devestate many, many people--
maybe Sally's right, and it would have been a few hundred. Those few
hundred weren't given a choice, and have no future. And thousands more
would lose family and friends... simply extrapolate from the number
killed. Beyond that, we have property destruction. No house, no job, and
no government to give disaster relief aid.
It doesn't have to be millions killed in order to be horrific. Blake is,
I suppose, believing in a best case scenario in which replacement
governements spring up almost overnight. Where different groups work
together to ensure that commerce resumes almost immediately to get
supplies where they are most needed. Where those who grew rich and fat
under the Federation are stripped of power-- rather than using their
accumulated power to grow more powerful. He's an idealist, and his hope
gave fire to the people who *might* be able to make a difference.
I, however, lean towards worst case scenarios when I make decisions...
tends to make me indecisive, compared to Blake. But general anarchy
would not be part of any plan I'd make to build a better government.
Sorry for the rant. My point is people of good faith can believe Blake
*meant* well and yet think he was making an error. (I would say Avon
believed Blake meant well-- that's *why* he gave the 'wade in blood'
speech. If he didn't believe Blake meant well he wouldn't have had any
hope of rattling him with it)
I don't believe I weighed in on the debate much last time, so I hope
everyone will forgive me for running on at the mouth this time.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 11:46:20 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Blake and Jenna
Message-ID: <39DB7AFC.3F88@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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>
> In Duel, even if he has no romantic feelings for Jenna, he could tell her
> explicitly that he is grateful for her sterling piloting and is sorry that
> her being his friend has placed her in especially imminent risk of death.
>
> Of course, like Tonto in the Lenny Bruce routine, she might have said
> "What you mean WE, white man?" and hopped down from the tree to cut a
> deal with Kiera the Mutoid...
>
Now THAT would have made for an original episode, and one very much in
keeping with the overall series.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 21:31:33 +0100
From: "David A McIntee" <Master@allisurvey.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Some more Jackie Pearce news
Message-Id: <E13gvB4-0005TM-00.2000-10-04-21-30-10@mail6.svr.pol.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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She's been added to the cast of the Radio 4 Dr Who pilot, Death Comes To
Time, along with Sylvester McCoy, Sophie Aldred and Stephen Fry
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 20:40:28 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Something else about Star One (as the old Star One argument)
Message-ID: <LAW-F22TGJ2TUSzbAUf0000a891@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Stomping severely on the urge to keep this going *again* (and I can. I've at
least seven more arguments with at least one more WW2 historical parrallel
:-) but I think we have to accept that this is one where no one is going to
convince anyone else of anything. Just let's all keep the use of the word
'millions' to Killer where it's canonical, yes?
So let's see if there's anything else we can discuss here . What else *is*
there that we can talk about this wonderful, glorious episode besides *that*
moral question (oh, and why Avon agreed to commit hari kiri at the end,
since we've done that one too).
There's the fact that some brainless PWB decided that its location should be
so secret that they can't even get to it when it starts playing up? Travis
says this was done thirty years ago ... Judith, I know you have argued
(quite convincingly) that he was lying, that it was only a few years ago.
In Gambit, Docholli says that he erased the memories from all the
technicians that worked on Star One (all thirty of them. This was *such* a
big project) and it's implied fairly clearly that no one else knew the
location (errmmm ... thta's extremely hard to swallow, even for a fan of
Suspension of Disbelief such as myself). He then goes on to say "I realized
that Servalan would never believe that I hadn't scanned the brain prints."
Indicating that [a] Servalan was in power at the time (bang goes the thrity
years unless she has a hell of a plastic surgeon) and [b] she either thought
up or agreed to the total blackout of information. Including from herself.
Anyone else find this very hard to equate with her Supremeness as we know
her? Anyone able to tell me where I've got it wrong?
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 23:59:50 +0300 (EEST)
From: Kai V Karmanheimo <karmanhe@cc.helsinki.fi>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Amount impacted by Star One
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.20.0010042355460.19995-100000@kruuna.Helsinki.FI>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
A subject I promised I would not involve myself in the second time, but
I'm making an exception here, and getting this off my chest (so that it
doesn't infect my chest wound).
Sally wrote:
<But Star One was destroyed, and the mass extinction didn't happen, did
it?
Far from being decimated by flood, fire and famine etc, it appears most
worlds we see or hear about managed reasonably well and a lot managed to
revolt in the bargain (to the point where it took the Federation months to
bring even the centre of control - the Inner Worlds- to heel).>
I don't see it like this at all. First of all, we saw only a few planets
out of those 200+ worlds. I wouldn't expect the effects of Star One's
destruction to be same on every one, rather depending on the level of
their technology, their surface conditions, their population patterns
etc. During season three, we saw two Federation planets, Kairos and Earth
(I discount Terminal, as it was an artificial creation and seemed to be
isolated from the rest of the Federation). Kairos was an uninhabited,
apart from its sympathetic spiders, and apparently had no permanent
monitoring stations, communication systems or weather control systems, so
it would probably not have been affected, and even if it were, who would
notice the difference? We only saw a very small patch of Earth, a rather
remote rural area, which does not represent the whole of the planet.
Season four showed us at least Helotrix and Bucol 2. I should point out,
however, that time has passed since Star One's destruction, over a year
certainly, possibly several years (the series time-scale being its own,
unclear self), and the most immediate signs of destruction could have been
removed. Helotrix having already become a new warzone, it is difficult to
assess what damage was there before and what not. Bucol 2 was again a
near-abandoned planet, with just the laboratory complex remaining, with
few overground structures or the likes, which might have been damaged by
or suffered from adverse effects.
However, the fate of these planets gives no conclusive evidence of what
happened on the other two hundred. We don't hear much news about them, and
after all, it's a great big universe out there. In the world today, on
this poxy little planet, we have our share of natural disasters and wars
(even more natural disasters where human beings are involved), some of
which claim the lives of thousands of people. Thanks to the miracle of
modern communications, we can be instantly aware of this - and still go on
with our normal business. Make a scale adjustment from a single planet to
an interplanetary empire spanning a large part of the galaxy. Consider how
much greater the distances, how unreliable the communications (after all,
they were in the list of things affected). Whole planets could die without
anyone knowing or caring because they were too busy with their own
problems. A planet's population could have been wiped out while its
immediate neighbour (mere 4-12 lightyears away) might be left nearly
untouched, expect for the loss of communications.
There was damage to the planets, we hear Tarrant talking about needing a
base planet "somewhere that's not been ruined by the war". The
"ruining" effect of the war could well have been caused by Star One's
destruction, not solely by direct military action against the planets. Lot
of damage caused by wars is cumulative, the effect lingering for years
afterwards. Rather than immediate death by flooding or fire or whatever,
people could die slowly of famine (S1 controlled food production), disease
(the byproduct of the previous one) and weather (cold winters on a planet
used to mild ones). And you don't need whole planets wiped out, or all the
planets affected. One Albian-sized world eliminated will get you to the
multi-million league on the scoreboard. I don't know the Federation's
pre-IGW population, but it could have been several billions. A few million
in that situation is hardly that great a loss, now is it? Just a small
dent in the census diagrams. Hardly worth calling a "mass extinction", in
fact hardly worth mentioning at all. "These things happen." There is no
further evidence to support this, but I don't see any contradictory
evidence either.
Then about the revolts against the Federation. The apparent independence
of some worlds may just as well be attributed to the weakness of the
Federation. After all, they lost the majority of their battle fleet and up
to sixty per cent of the bright boys and girls in their front line troops
cried "dulce et decorum est pro patria mori" and happily spilled their
blood and guts all over the Sacred Altar of War. Not all surviving troops
were necessary loyal to a single authority (as Servalan seemed to
suggest), and anyway they would have been in disarray with their command
network off the air. We don't how long it took for them to even get an
organised effort going, and how many Inner Planets there were. Any war
damage, any destruction from malfunctioning systems would have hit the
garrisons on colonised planets just the same as the civilian living areas,
making it easier for any indigenous survivors to declare their
independence simply because no one could quite get round to argue. "Look,
our planet's turned to a rubble, and there's just the two of us alive and
we have no food and we're gonna freeze to death in a few days, but at
least we're FREE! [cue in the heroic trumpet fanfare and string swells]
Yes, truly it is better to die standing than live on your - Hey, stop
chewing my thigh!"
All right, I clearly have my own strict opinion of Star One's role, but
what I have been trying to say is that there just isn't enough information
to be sure of anything. There could have been millions of
fatalities. There could have been none. There could have been anything in
between. The available evidence neither confirms nor refutes any of these
claims conclusively. Like with so many other things about this series, you
can believe what you want to believe - and people generally do even if
they couldn't.
Kai
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:41:22 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love
Message-ID: <00b601c02e4f$c4200220$666b4e0c@dshilling>
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Sally said:
> How do you know he doesn't? [give Jenna her share of the treasure]
For that matter, how do you know she hasn't
> already *got* her share? That they haven't basically divided up the
goodies
> long before (this is a crew of criminals, remember)?
Donald Westlake wrote a book in which a gang of bumbling criminals (familiar
much?) had to keep stealing the same emerald over and over. Now I'm
imagining a constant procession of items being appropriated by Avon,
then nicked by Vila, lifted by Jenna, etc...
>
> Blake agreed to give Avon the *ship* - nothing was said about the crew,
the
> treasure, the contents of the wardrobe room or anything else. For my part,
> I'm absolutely certain he'd have taken Orac himself if he gone to Earth
:-)
You forget that I was there, and drafted an itemized punch list for My
Client
("Ship" shall henceforth be defined to mean external fabric, drive train,
computer systems, furniture and accessories....")
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:47:37 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Amount impacted by Star One (was Anna & the nature of love)
Message-ID: <00b701c02e4f$c61605c0$666b4e0c@dshilling>
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Ellynne G. said:
>
> And, speaking of levels, I wonder if, on some level, Blake wasn't almost
> relieved to find a justification not to carry through the 'final act'
> (not that galactic invasion is anything to jump up and down for joy over,
> but silver linings and all that).
Ever since Series 1, there has been a pattern of "going through a lot of
trouble to do something and then going through even more trouble to
undo it"--i.e., picking up Sandal Guys in TimeSquad, going to the aid
of the Ortega and then blowing it up, four cases of
radiation sickness to rescue Ensor Jr. who turns out to be FAR less
than grateful...
-(Y)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 17:57:23 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love
Message-ID: <00b801c02e4f$c7ca6c80$666b4e0c@dshilling>
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Russ said:
>
> I agree though, that the relationships between characters are very
> much understated in the traditional British way, hence probably the
> amount of mileage we authors get out of exploring them.
>
> Gratitude should have been obvious to Jenna,
IOW NOBODY on the ship found it necessary to become irrational
to prove that they cared, or even to prove it at all?
-(Y)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:07:38 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love
Message-ID: <00bb01c02e4f$d3052e00$666b4e0c@dshilling>
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Sally said:
> Blake's memory appears to me to be coming back with a hell of a rush at
this
> point (he knows stuff about Saurian Major that I *don't* think was on the
> Federation viscasts) and he seems to know enough about spacecraft to know
he
> doesn't need *many* extra people to start with (in fact, as we find out in
> Time Squad, two will do quite nicely). I still think, even at this stage,
> he'd be able to do better than the less-than-promising bunch we saw dumped
> off the London.
Besides, given how hideous the Federation is, and the vast number of
inhabited
worlds, it seems likely that there is at least one small nest of
trouble-makers
per planet.
-(Y)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 18:08:58 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love
Message-ID: <00bc01c02e4f$d485b380$666b4e0c@dshilling>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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Sally riposted:
>
> And if he has to *make* a Big
> Speech every time They're Going To Die or be called ungrateful, this is
> going to become very dull (and silly) viewing very very quickly :-)
I'd damn sure rather listen to Blake's version of Once More Unto the
Breach, Dear Friends than have them run down some more !@##$$%%^
corridors and have the same @!##$$%^ explosion, and I would rather
have seen Headhunter turn into a discussion (reflecting Star One experience)
on Controlling vs. Destroying Powerful But Dangerous Forces than chasing
the Halloween costume around the bridge.
-(Y)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 04 Oct 2000 16:27:22 -0600
From: Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@powersurfr.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Something else about Star One (as the old Star One
argument)
Message-Id: <4.1.20001004161142.0093bda0@mail.powersurfr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 08:40 PM 10/4/00 +0000, Sally Manton wrote:
>There's the fact that some brainless PWB decided that its location should be
>so secret that they can't even get to it when it starts playing up?
Maybe it's only kept secret from the important people like Servalan and her
military ilk who might get ideas in their greedy little heads..."No-One
Knows Where Star One Is" is accepted by the people in power the way
"Destroy Control And You Destroy The Federation" was drilled into all rebel
rabble until Pressure Point...but in fact there is a network of conditioned
technicians ready to snap into action at the first squawk of distress from
Star One...but unfortunately the Andromedans got them all as soon as they
landed.
>In Gambit, Docholli says that he erased the memories from all the
>technicians that worked on Star One (all thirty of them. This was *such* a
>big project) and it's implied fairly clearly that no one else knew the
>location (errmmm ... thta's extremely hard to swallow, even for a fan of
>Suspension of Disbelief such as myself). He then goes on to say "I realized
>that Servalan would never believe that I hadn't scanned the brain prints."
>
>Indicating that [a] Servalan was in power at the time (bang goes the thrity
>years unless she has a hell of a plastic surgeon) and [b] she either thought
>up or agreed to the total blackout of information. Including from herself.
Docholli was too drunk to put his coat on, even with assistance. I say he
was filling in the blanks in his memory with plausible-sounding bull as he
went along. They're lucky he told them to go to Goth, and not "Planet
Progrock".
--
For A Dread Time, Call Penny:
http://members.tripod.com/~Penny_Dreadful/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 10:01:22 +0930
From: "Minnie" <minnie@picknowl.com.au>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]RE: Blake's 7 Movie
Message-ID: <004a01c02e63$972072a0$b8c326cb@marina>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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Rita wrote:
>As far as I'm aware only Paul Darrow has been confirmed as definitely being
>in the movie.
Yay, <happy tushy dance>.
Although most of me really wants to see this, there is a tiny bit of me
sending out alarm 'I shouldnt touch this movie with a ten foot pole'
warnings.
Min.xxx
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 22:10:06 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]RE: Blake's 7 Movie
Message-ID: <20001004.224220.-75823.0.rilliara@juno.com>
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On Thu, 5 Oct 2000 10:01:22 +0930 "Minnie" <minnie@picknowl.com.au>
writes:
> Although most of me really wants to see this, there is a tiny bit of
> me
> sending out alarm 'I shouldnt touch this movie with a ten foot pole'
> warnings.
>
You too? I can't count the number of times I get that "Warning! Warning!
You'll be sorry! Don't read/watch this cheap rip off book/movie/TV show!"
feeling. I get it for most Star Wars novels, lots of late night TV
suitable for MST3K only, and quite a few shows with (at best) very vague
SF or fantasy connections.
Lemming like, I then read/watch the book/movie/TV show.
Can't complain. That's why I gave B7 a chance (hey, I love it now, but,
at the time, I had the alarm going off, saying, "Cheap sets! Scary bad
70's fashions! Characters standing around ignoring the noisy guy sneaking
up on them!" and so on.).
Ellynne
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 22:42:17 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy
Message-ID: <20001004.224220.-75823.1.rilliara@juno.com>
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On Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:22:41 +0100 "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
writes:
> From: Natasa Tucev <tucev@tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu>
> That Holy Grail of literature, the Human Condition, moved out from
> individuals to that seething heterogenous mass of humanity we call
> society.
> To relocate it within individuals, Fantasy has to move back to a
> time when
> individuals mattered. SF, on the other hand, moves forward to a
> time when
> individuals cease to have any importance at all, and then has to
> struggle
> with the implications. Reactionary SF is the product of a thought
> experiment that cannot come to terms with its own conclusions.
>
> >
> > Every culture, or every society, lives by certain myths. These
> myths, as
> you
> > say, serve to maintain the status quo.
>
Thinking of Euripides using the myth of Medea to question the position of
women in his society and the underlying assumption of Greek superiority.
Come to think of it, he did the same thing with Trojan Women, criticizing
the government and its war.
Then there's Ovid's Metamorphosis which got him exiled from Rome because
of its subversive elements.
And wasn't one of the great satires from England a retelling of the story
of David and Absalom but actually a pointed opinion piece on who should
have inherited the British throne?
In more recent examples, The Unconquored Country was actually a painful
retelling of events in Cambodia during the 70's based largely on the
actual nightmares of people who survived it. In the opening scene, if I
remember correctly, the heroine is alone in a filthy room giving birth to
monsters. She sells her womb to give birth to living weapons and, weak
and exhausted as she is, stumbles off to deliver them as soon as she can
for two reasons. Women who do this work have been killed by the weapons
in their sleep, and the weapons sometimes kill each other. Its piecemeal
work. She only gets paid for the live ones she delivers.
McKillip's Song of the Basilisk presents what seems to be a basic lost
heir out to avenge his family's murder story, then promptly turns all the
conventions on their ears, leaving an old opera writer to ask how could
he have known there was any truth is such a trite story? It also gives
killing with kindness a whole new meaning.
And, although Arthurian has been done to death, the correlation
Americans continue to make between the JFK administration and a certain
musical remains interesting to anyone with even a minor bent for
anthropological studies.
Fantasy has been used to explore all the biggies. It asks all the who
are we? what are we doing here? type questions (and comes up with some
very interesting answers).
Ellynne
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 21:37:26 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Rontane 5
Message-ID: <000601c02e97$d2cd8e80$c0c628c3@stx.ox.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Episode 5 of the Posthumous Memoirs of Secretary Rontane, the Federation's
answer to Hunter S. Thompson, is now available at
http://redrival.com/nyder/rontane.html. This completes the backlog; Episode
6 will thus be out whenever I get the time to finish it....
Fiona
http://nyder.r67.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 16:10:05 +0930
From: "Minnie" <minnie@picknowl.com.au>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]RE: Blake's 7 Movie
Message-ID: <001c01c02e97$197dfb40$61ae3acb@marina>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Ellynne wrote:
>Can't complain. That's why I gave B7 a chance (hey, I love it now, but,
>at the time, I had the alarm going off, saying, "Cheap sets! Scary bad
>70's fashions! Characters standing around ignoring the noisy guy sneaking
>up on them!" and so on.).
Thats partly why I love B7. <G>
I just get the feeling we will feel cheated or worse, the movie will stink
and I cant talk for anyone else but that sort of thing kinda puts me off the
original movie/show a little. :( On the other hand, it might be some sort
of closure or an explination re the final episode.
Fingies xst. :)
Min.xxx
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 08:22:04 +0200
From: Steve Kilbane <steve@whitecrow.demon.co.uk>
To: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
Cc: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy
Message-Id: <200010050722.IAA03914@whitecrow.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Neil wrote:
> No, I don't think so either. SF radical, Fantasy reactionary? There's an
> awful lot of reactionary SF out there. Probably more than there is of
> radical Fantasy, though.
I'd agree with this.
> However, I would say that SF *as a concept* is radical, even if it turns out
> anything but in the execution.
I disagree with the implication, that other writing is not. Before going
further, the definitions I work from are, roughly:
- SF is something set in "our" world, with our limitations. Some of those
limitations are relaxed by extrapolation of scientific theory, by
imagination, or by common conceit (e.g. FLT).
- Fantasy is something set in "another" world, with its own, different
limitations. It may look the same or appear completely different, but
the natural laws there are different.
I think I got these from the Grant/Clute encyclopaedias.
> [SF] has its eye to the future, to see what
> might happen if we step outside the myths we live by. [...]
>
> Fantasy, by contrast, looks to the past, usually a pre-Industrial one, and
> does so in order to reaffirm a set of mythic values that do not need to be
> explained or validated because they are tacitly assumed to hold true.
I disagree. Both are means for setting up a story how the author wants,
needs or imagines it. Different rules apply for how the story is set up,
but that's minor. SF might appear to challenge more, because by being in
"our" world, there's a closer analogy, but Fantasy just uses allegory
more, instead.
Of course, Sturgeon's Law applies, so all that garbage that just churns out
pages to fill a demand doesn't do either SF or F justice in terms of what
they could achieve.
> I think the Industrial Revolution functions as a watershed between Fantasy
> and SF because that was the moment when the individual began to disappear.
> That Holy Grail of literature, the Human Condition, moved out from
> individuals to that seething heterogenous mass of humanity we call society.
> To relocate it within individuals, Fantasy has to move back to a time when
> individuals mattered. SF, on the other hand, moves forward to a time when
> individuals cease to have any importance at all, and then has to struggle
> with the implications.
Sorry, but this seems a scarily broad brush to me, akin to the "SF isn't
*real* fiction" fallacy. Surely the whole point about SF stories where
"the inviduals cease to have any importance" is usually that they *do*
have importance?
> Myth can no longer sustain the status quo because there no longer is a
> status quo. Its social function has been made redundant at a time when we
> need it more than ever. SF can help us abandon that need, Fantasy can't.
Why not?
> How much fantasy really does this? Surely it's SF, as a literary mimic of
> the scientific process, that at least aspires to that level of objectivity,
> even if it fails to get there more often than not.
Fantasy probably aspires to question traditional myths and their values
more than SF; SF tends to be too closely focused on the potential implications
of a very small aspect of today's world, that might be irrevelant tomorrow.
Fantasy tends to revisit the myths themselves, and often does so in a form
that is outside of today's immediate context, so has more chance of still
being relevant tomorrow.
Personally, I think it comes down to how well the author writes his or her
story, regardless of whether it's written in F, SF, or mainstream. The
author just has different tools available.
steve
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 10:31:23 +0100
From: Alison Page <alison_page@becta.org.uk>
To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Something else about Star One
Message-ID: <21B0197931E1D211A26E0008C79F6C4AB0C7B3@BRAMLEY>
Content-Type: text/plain
Sally said -
>>Servalan was in power at the time (bang goes the thirty years unless she
has a hell of a plastic surgeon) and she either thought up or agreed to the
total blackout of information. Including from herself. Anyone else find this
very hard to equate with her Supremeness as we know her? <<
Good point, but I quite like trying to wrench everything into some kind of
sense.
Now you could do it fairly straightforwardly - just say 'Oh, well they have
some kind of genetic refreshment system that slows down aging, and everyone
is much older than they look'. This isn't too implausible: if any one of us
(apart from the youngest people on this list) went back to the middle ages,
we would be thought to be younger than we actually are, because of modern
medicine and nutrition and so-on.
But I am wondering if in the B7 universe the whole idea of physical
continuity of personal identity is somewhat different than our own. 'Travis'
is the most obvious example. It seems that in this future people are happy
to attribute identity to persons that we would call distinct. Whereas
Servalan seems confident that she can be taken to be a new person, without
any effort to change her physical appearance. So, something rather strange
is going on.
Perhaps the genetic renewal is somewhat radical. Perhaps it almost becoming
a new person. Or perhaps old minds are transferred to new bodies, as a
matter of course among the highest class. Then the loss of knowledge of star
one could have been built into the renewal system - you get a nice new body,
but you forget everything that the rulers want you to forget.
I also wonder about the way the same few characters are constantly meeting
up, in this vast galaxy. Perhaps the population of the human race is
actually pretty small. One dome per world, a few independent stations, a few
tribal societies. The total population of the galaxy is less than that of
modern London, and they all live a very long time. Is there any reason that
the events of B7 couldn't stretch over decades?
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 20:40:02 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]RE: Blake's 7 Movie
Message-ID: <20001005204002.C1012@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 10:10:06PM -0600, Ellynne G. wrote:
>
> You too? I can't count the number of times I get that "Warning! Warning!
> You'll be sorry! Don't read/watch this cheap rip off book/movie/TV show!"
> feeling. I get it for most Star Wars novels, lots of late night TV
> suitable for MST3K only, and quite a few shows with (at best) very vague
> SF or fantasy connections.
Of course, it's even worse when one gets the "Warning! Warning!
Don't read this expensive rip off book/movie/TV show!"
Or at least, for anything in which the publicity consists of ravings
about the special effects.
Thank God for The Matrix, which actually started using ultra SFX to
*mean* something more than just a gosh-wow factor.
Kathryn Andersen
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"Listen to me, Paramount. Your time has come and gone. It's our turn
now!" -- adapted from G'Kar to Londo in Babylon 5:"Midnight on the
Firing Line"
-- Leon Poladian <L.Poladian@oftc.usyd.edu.au> Wed, 29 May 1996
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@foobox.net>
/ \ | <http://www.foobox.net/~kat>
\_.--.*/ | <http://angelcities.com/members/rubykat>
v | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 13:31:44 +0200
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <inquisitioner@wish.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Another Zenith
Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20001005132809.009d8250@pop3.wish.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
No I haven't heard of one. But I want one. Badly.
So how are the sales for the first Zenith coming along? Have they gotten
anywhere near the point where we can expect Zenith 2 within our lifetimes?
And will the second Zenith have *that* picture of Brian Croucher as a
centerfold?
Jacqueline
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 13:43:16 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Another Zenith
Message-ID: <011301c02ec9$da213f10$0d01a8c0@codex>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jacqueline wrote:
> So how are the sales for the first Zenith coming along? Have they gotten
> anywhere near the point where we can expect Zenith 2 within our
lifetimes?
> And will the second Zenith have *that* picture of Brian Croucher as a
> centerfold?
I am of the opinion that a second issue of Zenith would sell out on the
strength of that poster alone.
Una
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #278
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