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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 00 : Issue 222

Today's Topics:
  Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking          [ "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.de ]
  Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit}          [ "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.n ]
  Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit}          [ "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.n ]
  [B7L] Avon and Explosives             [ Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net> ]
  Re: [B7L] Avon and Explosives         [ "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl> ]
  Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit}          [ "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btin ]
  [B7L] 'Twould have improved it no en  [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Wardrobe room               [ "Julie Horner" <jihorner@dial.pipex ]
  Re: [B7L] Wardrobe room               [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking          [ Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk> ]
  Re: [B7L] Wardrobe room               [ "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl> ]
  Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit}          [ Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk> ]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 13:53:45 +0100
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking
Message-ID: <005201bffedc$4e4d1d00$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
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Ellyne said -

>Having deja vu on a Cordwainer Smith story called the "The Dead Lady of
>Clown Street." An AI with the brain imprint of a dead woman asks, when
>explaining her origins, whether she's herself or not

<and some interesting stuff about the animal people too>

The scene you mention here reminds me of 'the fifth head of cerberus' by
Gene Wolf (perhaps he stole the idea from Cordwainer Smith). If you get the
new 'SF Masterworks' edition of that, the front cover shows an AI with the
brain implant of a dead guy. This AI refuses, incidentally, to give a proper
answer to the question of whether or not it is conscious.

And 'fifth head of
cerberus' has aliens just like the andromedans, who can imitate human
beings, only it is some indeterminate time after the war between them and
humans. And nobody knows if the 'andromedans' were wiped out, or if they
replaced all the humans, or if the slave caste are the real humans, or the
shape-shifting aliens. All the records are lost and corrupted, nobody knows
who won the war.

Alison

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 18:45:32 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit}
Message-ID: <001901bffee2$89461a00$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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From: Ellynne G. <rilliara@juno.com>
> Now, I know there are other factions, the _WHIZ!!!_ fanatics and the
> _ZING!!!_ believers.  There's also the Rationalist Apostate Techno
> Scientists (better known as RATS) who insist all space flight must be
> perfectly silent.  However, I remain convinced that _ZIP!!!_ remains the
> only rational solution and defy anyone to prove otherwise.

_ZIP!!!_ has a lot going for it, but in an ideal universe (ie one with a big
budget) there would be scope for a bit of _ssshhhhreeeAAAUUURRRMMMMMM!!!!!_
(it opens up opportunities for the FTL Doppler effect, very evident when a
huge spaceship lumbers overhead from behind whilst executing a sharp turn to
the right.  Liberator, alas, never really got the chance to do this.

Neil

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 14:37:03 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit}
Message-ID: <001a01bffee2$8a311640$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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Lysias and Gnog:
>  > there's no evidence of time dilation anywhere in the series, for a
start
> (apart from the end of 'Blake' <g>).
>
> Ah, but Squirbles law actually allows for that by compensating time
> dillation with time distortion. Put that in specifically you see.

As the original propounder of Squirble's Law (on behalf of Squirble, who
can't actually propound it personally due to the marginal problem of not
having been born yet), I feel duty bound to point out the difference in the
Squirble Mechanism (which governs the interactivity of quarks, subquarks and
potentions) and the Squirble Effect (which determines what bloody use all
this theory might be put to).  Mechanism and Effect are connected by a
hypothetical wave packet which collapses and hides behind the fridge
whenever anyone tries to examine it[1] .  Hence one may only discuss the
Mechanism *or* the Effect, but not the possible relation between the two, an
irritating limitation I suggest might be called the Neili Exclusion
Principle.  This suggests that trying to initiate such a discussion in the
first place might be a fruitless exercise[2].

A full discourse on the theoretical principles of Squirble's Law is
ultimately counter-productive.  One need only turn one's attention to the
implicative dimensions of the law, otherwise known as the Practical Upshot,
which can be summarised as follows:
(a) who cares so long as it works?
(b) if it didn't work it would scupper the plot [3].
(c) it ain't half clever what they can build these days.
(d) there's nothing wrong with a bit of bafflegab [4].

[1] or subjects cats to cruel and unnecessary experiments with prussic acid
and a geiger counter.
[2] in the case of a subneutronic overlap shift, this is literally true.
[3] This does not contradict the related principle of "If it didn't *fail*
it would scupper the plot".  It's clearly got to work most of the time
before it can break down when the plot demands.
[4] Note the difference between bafflegab and technobabble.  Technobabble is
tedious, long-winded and unintentionally incomprehensible whilst genuinely
and sincerely attempting to mean something.  Bafflegab is short, pithy, very
intentionally incomprehensible with no attempt to mean anything.  It just
sounds good.  Bafflegab can occupy the main prose painlessly, whilst
technobabble firmly belongs in footnotes [5].
[5] I've been reading some Pratchett recently.  Shows, doesn't it?

Neil

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 09:31:22 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Avon and Explosives
Message-ID: <398C415A.3A06@jps.net>
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> By Star One the producers must have caught on that Avon looks more heroic
> waving explosives about than poking into computers with a laser probe. :-)
> 
> Marian

Interesting theory. I think I prefer the laser probes myself. In fact,
Countdown lets him pit his  bag of tools *against* an explosive device,
which seems much more heroic then just sticking little bombs on things
and running off.

Speaking of the bombs the rebels use, which of them was the demolitions
expert? Were those handy stick-on timer bombs part of the Liberator's
amazing supply load? They did look pre-manufactured to me. Or did the
rebels work together to create the bombs? I expect Avon would be quite
able to do the timing device, but Vila or Jenna would be the only 1st
season characters who I can picture having had much need for explosive
before.

------------------------------

Date:   Sat, 5 Aug 2000 22:07:34 +0200
From: "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and Explosives
Message-ID: <000c01bfff18$cd7729e0$60ed72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl>
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Helen Krummenacker wrote:
>Speaking of the bombs the rebels use, which of them was the demolitions
expert? Were those handy stick-on timer bombs part of the Liberator's
amazing supply load? They did look pre-manufactured to me. Or did the rebels
work together to create the bombs? I expect Avon would be quite able to do
the timing device, but Vila or Jenna would be the only 1st season characters
who I can picture having had much need for explosive before.<

I can't see Vila using something as crude as explosives to open a safe :-).
In Star One he is very reluctant to handle explosives and states explicitely
that he doesn't like them.

I've my doubts about Jenna; smuggling explosives does not necessitate the
need to know how to create them.

During his hacking activities prior to his arrest Avon may have stumbled on
some recipes in a Federation munition manufactury computer and learnt them
by heart under his maxim of All Knowledge Is Valuable.  (But I don't think
he'd bother.)

Blake and Cally seem to me to be the ones most likely to know how to build a
bomb.  Of course, we don't know anything about Gan's background :-).

And yes, I too think they found the ready-to-prime-bombs amongst Liberator's
supplies.  (If there's a treasure room and a wardrobe why not an armoury?)
Or they picked them up somewhere, Jenna would know where to get them at cut
price.

Marian

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2000 22:16:24 +0100
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit}
Message-ID: <004201c000b5$268c8dc0$e14a01d5@leanet>
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>As the original propounder of Squirble's Law (on behalf of Squirble, who
>can't actually propound it personally due to the marginal problem of not
>having been born yet),

I apologise for not appropriately recognise your invaluable contribution to
techno babble of all forms.

>Hence one may only discuss the
>Mechanism *or* the Effect, but not the possible relation between the two,
an
>irritating limitation I suggest might be called the Neili Exclusion
>Principle.  This suggests that trying to initiate such a discussion in the
>first place might be a fruitless exercise[2].

>[2] in the case of a subneutronic overlap shift, this is literally true.


Undoubtedly a very insightful contribution, and from my brief experimental
forays into the subject, I should think the Neili Exclusion Principle is a
fundamental component of the universe. Perhaps more fundamental than the
insistence that physical laws display uniformity over infinite distances and
any frame of reference, rather than with a certain coherence length,
lower bounds for which may be experimentally verified.

Gnog

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 11:07:19 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] 'Twould have improved it no end ...
Message-ID: <LAW-F174aPQXQlgQxuT0000592a@hotmail.com>
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I've been musing on simple changes that would have made  some episodes 
*much* more fun (well, for me at least) ...

Mission to Destiny - the crew of the Ortega decide that the most likely 
suspect (by three hundred light-years) is the sarky s o b having all the fun 
with the questions.

Duel - the person chosen to 'demonstrate the death of a friend' is Vilakins.

Deliverance - Jenna gets captured by tall, handsome, beautifully dressed 
Grecian-esque types. Avon has an extremely hairy and ugly barbarian falling 
at his feet and hugging his ankles (this would also make the 'did he go any 
further with her?' question more ... ummm ...)

Voice from the Past - Orac decides *Avon* is the best person to share 
Blake's nightmares.

The Keeper - Tara is chief of the Goths. She fancies Fearless Leader. Let's 
hear you say 'good' to *that* pair-bonding, dearest ...

Aftermath - Servalan and/or the entire Mellanby household turn out to be 
escaped Andromedan goo-people.

Volcano - Blake is too on Obsidian (well, what did you expect from me?)

Harvest of Kairos - Avon, Tarrant or Jarvik - I don't care which - has 
screaming arachnophobia.

Assassin - 'tis obvious. Scorpio got distracted and My Darling got sold. 
Alternately, Avon acted within character and shot Piri twelve minutes after 
meeting her (of course, this would have made for a much shorter episode ...)


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Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 12:19:35 +0100
From: "Julie Horner" <jihorner@dial.pipex.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Wardrobe room
Message-ID: <00a701bfff98$47d7cc60$0c84bc3e@orac>
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From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
> Why is it that Jenna and Avon find the Wardrobe room in
> Cygnus Alpha, but
> the other three don't seem to be told about about it until *after* Time
> Squad? After all, both of them are wearing new (and rather awful) duds all
> through Time Squad - don't you think Vila at least would notice? (Gan
> doesn't strike me as the peacock type, and Blake might have More
> Important Things on his mind.)

Why do you think there is a Wardrobe Room? I always assumed that
they explored the unused cabins and the clothes belonged to the
previous occupants. I guess Gan would have little choice as there
can't have been many things in his size. Blake as you say would
probably consider this a frivolous matter and would only look for
more clothes out of necessity. But Vila of all people could be expected
to have a very lively interest in other peoples property. Maybe he
was actually a very fashion-conscious guy who found the clothes and
thought "Yuck, they can stay where they are" but eventually had to
lower his standards and wear whatever he could find.

Just thought - can anyone remember which is the first episode where
Avon wears leather?

Julie

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2000 11:26:36 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Wardrobe room
Message-ID: <LAW-F219seVwrblZz0200000895@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Julie asked:
<Why do you think there is a Wardrobe Room? I always assumed that they 
explored the unused cabins and the clothes belonged to the previous 
occupants.>

From Cygnus Alpha:

AVON: Where did you get the clothes?

JENNA: I found a room full of them down there. Why don't you go and have a 
look?

Of course, she *could* have meant that she found a room full of clothes just 
in her size, but that's not how I read it, more of a room just filled with 
... clothes. *All* sizes (probably a lot that didn't fit any of Our Heroes, 
too, and I don't see this lot as handy with a needle and thread).

<Blake as you say would probably consider this a frivolous matter and would 
only look for more clothes out of necessity.>

'Course, once he gets the idea he blossoms out into chain-mail decoration 
and melon sleeves, but he's not one of the chief peacocks.

<But Vila of all people could be expected to have a very lively interest in 
other peoples property. Maybe he was actually a very fashion-conscious guy 
who found the clothes and thought "Yuck, they can stay where they are" but 
eventually had to lower his standards and wear whatever he could find.>

Like patchwork jackets (but he *did* sound pleased with it when he asked 
Cally what she thought!) and yellow flatworms <veg>. Still, better than the 
shrug-on wardrobe he gets in 3rd series ...

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Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 13:12:51 GMT
From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking
Message-Id: <200008061212.NAA31112@smtp.uk2net.com>

Betty:

> Personally, I regard passing the
> Turing Test as a sufficient condition for being regarded as sentient
> (under the "if it quacks like a duck" theory), but definitely not as a
> necessary one.
> 
> Um, drifting a bit from B7 here...  OK, what do people think about
> Vinni?  Or the Avalon android?  They both seem to have passed the Turing
> test...


Ah, but the Blake android on Gauda Prime didn't. And they got his face slightly 
wrong in the eye area.

Love,
Ika

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Date:   Sun, 6 Aug 2000 14:14:11 +0200
From: "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Wardrobe room
Message-ID: <000801bfff9f$d6c9de20$60ed72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl>
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Julie Horner asked:
>Just thought - can anyone remember which is the first episode where Avon
wears leather?<

Redemption - the 'demented dentist suit'.  (I don't know who came up with
that description but it's spot on IMHO.)

Marian

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 16:28:38 GMT
From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit}
Message-Id: <200008061528.QAA00199@smtp.uk2net.com>

> > May I be the first to nominate Gnog as the official Orac for Freedom
> >  City?
> 
> That'd be a little hard to do, since Gnog isn't on Freedom City. ;-)
> 


He can be Blake, then.

Love,
Ika

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