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------------------------------

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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 00 : Issue 17

Today's Topics:
	 Re: [B7L] Strictly OT, but Nuking Japan was RE: many, many people
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 [B7L] Re: many, many people
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 Re: [B7L] socks
	 Re: [B7L] GSP and Oppression
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 Re: [B7L] Strictly OT, but Nuking Japan was RE: many, many people
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 [B7L] Avon & Friends (?)  (was: Many many people...)
	 Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends (?) (was: Many many people...)
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 Re: [B7L] Re: many, many people
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 [B7L] Avon & Friends (?) (was: Many many people...)
	 Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends (?)  (was: Many many people...)
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 [B7L] History
	 [B7L] I've got the set
	 Re: [B7L] History
	 Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends (?) (was: Many many people...)
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 [B7L] Millenium Dome

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:26:21 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Strictly OT, but Nuking Japan was RE: many, many people
Message-ID: <43SNWQAtxMh4Ew0R@jajones.demon.co.uk>

In message <000e01bf61b6$de6b9d80$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>, Alison Page
<alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk> writes
>But without
>food, arms or men, Japan
>were in no position to 'significantly escalate' the war in any way. And the
>American authorities must have known this, as they had fairly good
>intelligence, and their own troops were coming upon starving and demoralised
>civilian populations.

"Being in no position to" is not the same as "incapable of admitting to
themselves that they were in no position to".

Not that this proves that they *were* planning to escalate the war, just
that lack of resources is no reason to assume that they weren't.
-- 
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
        The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 17:05:52 -0500
From: Susan Beth <susanbeth33@mindspring.com>
To: blake7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-Id: <3.0.4.32.20000118170552.013de010@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Una McCormack wrote:
>Neil wrote:
>
>> That might be difficult - I don't have any friends.
>
>Don't be silly, Neil. *I'm* your friend. If only to hack you off so that you
>can't write 'I don't have any friends' any more.

Ah, but is friendship necessarily reflexive?  If you number Neil among your
friends, does that mean he must number you among his?


Susan Beth


(susanbeth33@mindspring.com)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 13:36:03 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <3884DCC2.EC95AFFF@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith Proctor wrote:

> Neil <grin>, I *love* you.

Well, I wish to take a page from Arnold Rimmer's book and say
that over the months, Neil, I have come to regard you as...
someone I knew.

Mistral
--
"Who do you serve? And who do you trust?"
               --Galen, 'Crusade'

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 22:27:47 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blake7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <10cc01bf6203$515d82d0$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Susan Beth wrote:

> Una McCormack wrote:
> >Neil wrote:
> >
> >> That might be difficult - I don't have any friends.
> >
> >Don't be silly, Neil. *I'm* your friend. If only to hack you off so that
you
> >can't write 'I don't have any friends' any more.
>
> Ah, but is friendship necessarily reflexive?  If you number Neil among
your
> friends, does that mean he must number you among his?

Ah, but I can simply love him unconditionally. Hello, flowers... Hello,
trees...


Una

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:58:20 EST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <20000118225820.97194.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
>Ah, but I can simply love him unconditionally. Hello, flowers... Hello,
>trees...

<grin> Fotherington-Thomas has a sister...Be afraid...

Regards
Joanne


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Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:32:48 -0700
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: many, many people
Message-ID: <20000118.183249.11454.3.Rilliara@juno.com>

>Not that this proves that they *were* planning to escalate the war, 
>just
>that lack of resources is no reason to assume that they weren't.
>-- 
Well, didn't one of Japan's leaders suggest the whole country commit
suicide?  If I remember correctly, he called the idea 'very beautiful.' 
And I know Hirohito broke a long standing tradition (centuries, in fact)
of imperial neutrality to break the deadlock and suggest surrender.

I've also read some accounts of mass suicides in areas they had retaken. 
In one instance, families lined up on a cliff, youngest to oldest, their
backs turned so they wouldn't be afraid of the fall.  The parents pushed
off the children, then the father pushed off the mother and jumped off
himself.  A man who witnessed this--I think he was an army translator and
probably Japanese American--wrote how the American troops (who'd been
through a lot and were not generally feeling kindly towards the Japanese)
wept and begged these people not to do it, but were unable to stop them.

Another Japanese American recorded how the Japanese had to leave their
very worst wounded behind at a field hospital of some sort.  Each of the
men had been given a grenade to kill himself with if the Japanese were
unable to come back for them before Americans took the area.  When they
saw this man (remember, they were pretty out of it and [although he
didn't say] he was probably pretty messed up from the fighting, they
thought the Japanese were back and he was able to get the grenades.

And it was also the final days of the war in the Pacific that provided
the first (and, I think, only) instance where the marines were forced to
leave their dead behind.

Sure, these people were largely military or the families of military, but
it wasn't the kind of behavior to inspire belief in an easy taking of
Japan, especially if you assume people--exhausted and starving or
not--will rise to superhuman levels to defend their homes.

Add to that an extreme lack of knowledge or understanding of Asian
cultures among much of America's leadership at the time (actually, there
still is, but that's neither here nor there). Worst case scenarios may
have had more appeal than they deserved.  Or not.

Which needs to have something to do with B7, doesn't it?  Beats me.  I
don't think Blake ever considered this kind of resistance in fighting the
Federation.  If Blake had been seen as an outsider, then maybe.  But the
average Federation citizen (drugged or not) seemed either passive or
unsupportive of Federation policies.

Ellynne

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 18:03:51 -0700
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <20000118.183249.11454.2.Rilliara@juno.com>

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:58:20 EST "Joanne MacQueen"
<j_macqueen@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>
>
>>From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
>>Ah, but I can simply love him unconditionally. Hello, flowers... 
>Hello,
>>trees...
>
><grin> Fotherington-Thomas has a sister...Be afraid...

Eek! Warm-and-fuzzy-ness from Una _and_ Neil!  What next?  Avon decides
he'd look better in pink?

And they said Y2K didn't cause any real problems.  Obviously a Federation
cover story while certain people were fed a little too much Prozac or
bromine.

Ellynne

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:17:40 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] socks
Message-ID: <45.5f9032.25b694e4@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Mistral wrote (re: Avon),
<< Very much the thirtieth-century nerd with delusions of importance.>>

Now, now - delusions are functional, after all...<g>
 
<<  <g> He was awfully comfortable in Shadow, wasn't he?) >>

*Especially* after he extracted himself from those thigh-high boots! <veg>
  I wonder if they squeaked very much?  They must have been awfully hot under 
the studio lights.

Nina

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:17:41 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] GSP and Oppression
Message-ID: <5f.6be715.25b694e5@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Neil wrote:
<< >And my socks have perfected
 >teleportation.  Well, one in every pair seems to have... >>
 Andrew replied: 
<< Which is closely related to the recent demonstration of the "teleportation"
 of a quantum state between identical pairs of particles ! The second sock
 KNOWS you have found the first, the act of observing one sock makes the
 other invisible. >>

At least until Ren and Stimpy find them. <g>

Nina

------------------------------

Date: 19 Jan 2000 05:38:38 +0100
From: Calle Dybedahl <calle@lysator.liu.se>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <864scaad69.fsf@tezcatlipoca.algonet.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

>>>>> "Julia" == Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk> writes:

> what I was referring to with Prozac was the alleged suggestion by some
> American therapists that everyone should be put on Prozac, since
> everyone has a right to be happy.

If you ever hear a therapist say that, stay a *long* way away from
him/her. Prozac and other SSRI-type[1] drugs don't "make people
happy", they try to improve a chemical imbalance in the brain that has
a strong tendency to make people depressed. If you don't have the
imbalance, all you get out of the drug is the rather unpleasant side
effects.

[1] SSRI: Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Inhibitor.
-- 
 Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se
     "Last week was a nightmare, never to be repeated - until this week"
				-- Tom, a.s.r

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:09:42 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <26.10701c0.25b6a116@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 1/18/00 1:15:30 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk writes:

<< what I was referring to with Prozac was the alleged suggestion by some
 American therapists that everyone should be put on Prozac, since
 everyone has a right to be happy. >>

They got it wrong, of course - what we've got is the right to the *pursuit* 
of happiness.  Actually *getting* it is a whole 'nother matter!  Personally, 
too many happy people gives me the creeps.

Nina

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:09:42 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blake7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <20.fd1d3f.25b6a116@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 1/18/00 3:05:54 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
susanbeth33@mindspring.com writes:

<< Ah, but is friendship necessarily reflexive?  If you number Neil among your
 friends, does that mean he must number you among his? >>

<snicker> Rather like the Snarly One, in fact...

Nina

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:04:46 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Strictly OT, but Nuking Japan was RE: many, many people
Message-ID: <000201bf624c$d7079c60$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Walter/Ken wrote:
> I find the suggestion that the Americans nuked Nagasaki to test a bomb
> they already knew would work a little hard to take.
> On the other hand, they might have meant that the the US wanted to
> find out what the FAT MAN type bomb would do to a populated city.

That last is indeed the substance of the claim.  Of course they knew it
worked technically, but not the level of damage it could cause.
>
> Neil, could you please give a little more context to that claim by the
> anti-nuke lobby?

Fraid not.  I've been out of CND for yonks now and I've chucked all their
literature away.  Not that any of it should be taken as gospel anyway.  One
of the depressing things about worthy causes (especially when you generally
support them) is the dubious nature of some of their propaganda.  Some of it
is based on misinterpretation, some of it is outright lies.

My favourite example was a news item in the old feminist mag Spare Rib,
about some public service utility (gas or water or something) using pigs to
check that underground pipes were laid correctly (or something).  The pigs
were sent along the pipes at high speed by a blast of pressurised air,
according to the report, which led to the predictable indictments about
heartless male scientists making helpless innocent animals suffer etc.  Then
someone wrote it in to point out that the 'pigs' were just steel bars,
so-called because of the way they squealed when forced down the pipes...

Neil

"The only good alien is a dead alien" - Ursula LeGuin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:01:01 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0118230101-0b0Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

On Tue 18 Jan, Una McCormack wrote:
> Judith wrote:
> 
> > On Tue 18 Jan, Una McCormack wrote:
> > > Neil wrote:
> > >
> > > > That might be difficult - I don't have any friends.
> > >
> > > Don't be silly, Neil. *I'm* your friend. If only to hack you off so that
> you
> > > can't write 'I don't have any friends' any more.
> >
> > Hey, unfair, you beat me to it!
> >
> > Neil <grin>, I *love* you.
> 
> Fight you for him.

But if we share him, he has two friends.  <very evil grin>

Hey, how many friends do you think Avon had?  How many of the crew actually
liked our favorite pain-in-the-neck?  (or should that be 'second-favourite pain
in the neck' if we're rooting for Neil?)

I'm not talking love, nor co-opertion, nor even a good working relationship. 
Just plain old-fashioned liking.  Vila in 'Gambit' is the best example that
comes to mind (and then Avon goes and risks his life <sigh>).

Judith

-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 -  Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc.  (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight )
Redemption '01  23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 09:12:48 +0100
From: Angria@t-online.de (Tanja Kinkel)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Avon & Friends (?)  (was: Many many people...)
Message-ID: <12AqES-2ERqgyC@fwd00.sul.t-online.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT

Judith Proctor wrote:

> Hey, how many friends do you think Avon had? 
>
> I'm not talking love, nor co-opertion, nor even a good working relationship. 
> Just plain old-fashioned liking.  Vila in 'Gambit' is the best example that
> comes to mind (and then Avon goes and risks his life <sigh>).

Well, let's see. First, we have the "old friend" category, you know, the kind 
who ends up dead before the episode is over, i.e. Tynus and Keiler. We can 
discount Keiler without problems - he's the one calling himself a friend of 
Avon's, not vice versa, and he has a vested interest. Tynus? More difficult to 
judge. Sure, he tries to sell out Avon, too, but that doesn't mean they didn't 
like each other way back when. At the very least, he must have been one of the 
people Avon "relied" on since he has been involved in the embezzling thing, too. 
Still, I'm more inclined to speculate that was a "working relationship" with 
mutual exploitation possibilities.

The crew(s): Jenna - no. Gan - no (Gan gets along with him, but then Gan gets 
along with everyone). Vila - yes, as you said. Cally - I'd say yes, too and cite 
as examples that she genuinely likes Avon (likes, whether or not she loves him) 
her way of teasing him now and then (A: It's a pity we're not all as reliable as 
Zen. C: But I thought you were.) Blake - definitely yes. Dayna - no (in the 
beginning, she's got a crush on him, and later switches to being loyal to him as 
the leader, but I don't get the impression she LIKES him as a friend. Tarrant - 
no (Sally once pointed out this is more like the relationship between members of 
a family who may not like each other very much but are for the most part loyal 
to each other). Soolin - a tentative yes. They are similar in some ways, and 
seem to get along with each other better than Avon does with the other 
youngsters. However, it may just be a good "working relationship". 

Tanja

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:25:56 EST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends (?) (was: Many many people...)
Message-ID: <20000119082556.72721.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>From: Angria@t-online.de (Tanja Kinkel)
>Subject: [B7L] Avon & Friends (?)

Avon & Friends? I'm afraid that sounds rather like a range of cuddly toys, 
possibly with optional spiky collars or something...Hmm. No, you've no time 
to think about that, leave it to someone else.

Regards
Joanne
(still at work at 7.30pm, bloody deadlines...)



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:33:26 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <126201bf6259$c45e0290$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Ellynne wrote:

> Eek! Warm-and-fuzzy-ness from Una _and_ Neil!

Don't worry, it's probably just PMT on my part. I'm sure normal scowling
levels will be resumed shortly.


Una

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:35:27 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: many, many people
Message-ID: <126301bf6259$c497fe50$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Ellynne wrote:

> I've also read some accounts of mass suicides in areas they had retaken. 
> In one instance, families lined up on a cliff, youngest to oldest, their
> backs turned so they wouldn't be afraid of the fall.  The parents pushed
> off the children, then the father pushed off the mother and jumped off
> himself.  

Which is roughly what Goebbels did as well, only with poison.


Una

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 08:32:28 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "Lysator List" <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <126101bf6259$c406e1e0$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith wrote:

> On Tue 18 Jan, Una McCormack wrote:
> > Judith wrote:
> >
> > > On Tue 18 Jan, Una McCormack wrote:
> > > > Neil wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > That might be difficult - I don't have any friends.
> > > >
> > > > Don't be silly, Neil. *I'm* your friend. If only to hack you off so
that
> > you
> > > > can't write 'I don't have any friends' any more.
> > >
> > > Hey, unfair, you beat me to it!
> > >
> > > Neil <grin>, I *love* you.
> >
> > Fight you for him.
>
> But if we share him, he has two friends.  <very evil grin>

Now that's *much* more satisfying...


Una

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 00:58:24 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <20000119085824.20481.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Judith/Una:

<But if we share him, he has two friends.  <very evil grin>>

<Now that's *much* more satisfying...>

<clasping hands and putting on big, beaming, ultra-sincere
smile with violins in the background> but aren't we *all*
his dear and good friends?



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 01:24:26 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Avon & Friends (?) (was: Many many people...)
Message-ID: <20000119092427.20793.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Judith Proctor wrote:
<Hey, how many friends do you think Avon had?>

Having just done this one over on The Other List (those who
read it can move on now...), I came up with a list almost
exactly like Tanja's. He personally likes Blake (well, among
a hell of a lot of other emotions :-)), Cally and Vila. And
he *calls* Tynus his friend (I don't see it, but who am I to
argue when Avon *says* it?) so that makes four. Five if you
count Orac.

After all, he's a fountain of warm affection and camaraderie,
we can all see that...

As to who liked *him*, the above three, and possibly Tarrant
(well, sometimes. A little. But they're crewmates rather than friends). 
Soolin might have gotten there in time...lots of
time...

I sometimes think Orac considers Avon *his* pet/favourite toy
as much as Avon considers Orac *his*.

Now a fun idea would be to sit these people down (especially
the first three) and make them explain just *why* they like
him...



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 02:22:00 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends (?)  (was: Many many people...)
Message-ID: <38859046.F978A3D8@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> > Hey, how many friends do you think Avon had?

My unsurprising take: Blake liked him. Vila liked him. Cally
was fond of him, but that's not quite the same thing. Soolin
admired his abilities but hadn't got quite to liking, although I
think she would have eventually. Soon, judging by Headhunter.

The interesting one is Tynus. I think Avon liked Tynus
better than Tynus liked him, and was genuinely surprised
when Tynus betrayed him, because Avon wouldn't have
betrayed someone who was as much a friend as he thought
Tynus was. Just my impression.

Mistral
--
"Who do you serve? And who do you trust?"
               --Galen, 'Crusade'

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 02:28:08 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <388591B7.C4EB9807@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Calle Dybedahl wrote:

> >>>>> "Julia" == Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk> writes:
>
> > what I was referring to with Prozac was the alleged suggestion by some
> > American therapists that everyone should be put on Prozac, since
> > everyone has a right to be happy.
>
> If you ever hear a therapist say that, stay a *long* way away from
> him/her. Prozac and other SSRI-type[1] drugs don't "make people
> happy", they try to improve a chemical imbalance in the brain that has
> a strong tendency to make people depressed. If you don't have the
> imbalance, all you get out of the drug is the rather unpleasant side
> effects.

Even if you do have the chemical imbalance, mild ones can be
treated with diet modification. No side effects, and cheaper.

Mistral
--
"Who do you serve? And who do you trust?"
               --Galen, 'Crusade'

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 02:47:30 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <38859641.838A5DD4@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Neil Faulkner wrote:

> > A clever riposte, but illogical. You would prefer that people
> > wait until they are drowning to learn to swim?
>
> A clever analogy, but an inapplicable one, unless you think that
> recreational insurrection can be practiced to perfection - with no
> collateral damage - before embarking on the real thing. Goals can be decided
> in advance, strategy and tactics can't.  Unless your name is Douglas Haig,
> perhaps.

Values can and should be decided in advance, and they can inform
strategy and tactics.

> > > If I say the album was 5317704 you should be able to work it out.  Now,
> > > which of their hits might have been written for 4th Season Avon?

Mmm. Going on titles only... King Midas in Reverse?

> > I can only think of a title that might refer to Servalan.
>
> Carrie-Anne Servalan?

Long Cool Woman (In A Black Dress)

Mistral
--
"Who do you serve? And who do you trust?"
               --Galen, 'Crusade'

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:20:51 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] History
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0119102051-06cRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

On Sat 15 Jan, mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
> > But then it is difficult to poll people at large when you have no access to the
> > media and there is no mechanism for recording their votes in any case.  (I think
> > the alphas may have had some voting rights, but the labour grades certainly did
> > not)
> >
> > He had no way to gain such authority - nobody did.
> 
> Well, the polling is your idea; I've never suggested it. I think that
> you're probably right, he can't get such authority. But your take
> seems to be, since he can't get authority, he should do it anyway.
> My take is, since he can't get authority, he shouldn't do it. He
> ought to take a deep breath and try another method that doesn't
> overstep his authority. And another, and another, and another,
> if necessary. Yes, I realize it's more difficult, takes longer, and
> people will suffer under Federation rule in the meantime. But
> Blake won't have paid for his dream of freedom with lives that
> aren't his to spend.

I think the fact that you've not studied history is probably why we disagree so
much.  I've not studied much, but I think I've read more than you.  I also
suspect that American media report less news outside your own country than is
typical in Europe.

The actions (and death toll) of some legitimate governments against their own
people is truely staggering.  For example, you mentioned that the Russian people
eventually ousted their government as your father (or was it grandfather)
predicted.  It sounds so peaceful until you look at how many people were
systematically killed *before* that happened.  I'm not even going to quote the
figures because I think you'd find them too high to believe unless you
researched them yourself.  Find out what happened to prisoners of war who were
repatriated to Russia after WW2.  Ask how many peasants and nomads died in
deliberately engineered famine or in forced labour camps.

What value legitimacy when it kills millions? (and I do mean millions, this
isn't a vague 'many many' figure)

Move around the world.  Look at events in Rwanda, Indonesia, Kosovo and many
other countries.

The American war of Independence was fought over taxes.  Mass genocide seems to
be a more common starting point these days.
> 
> It's a fiction of popular culture, and even taught in some schools,
> that the American Civil War was about slavery. It wasn't. It was
> about economic issues. Slavery was used as a red herring to turn
> it into a sort of 'holy war'--a false justification for an unjust war.
> Slavery was on its way to an end *without* the war.

Actually, according to the excellent documentary I was watching over Xmas, the
cotton gin had made slavery more economic than ever.  If the war had no
connection with slavery, then how come the states took sides depending on
whether they were pro or anti-slave?

Economic issues *were* slavery.  The south's economy depended on it.  The
north's did not.

> Blake, OTOH, isn't in the position of a head of government
> contemplating a military action against a warring nation with
> possible collateral damage. Blake is a self-declared rebel,
> with no authority over civilians, contemplating an action where
> the *primary* damage will be civilian--any other scenario
> isn't reasonable--the very civilians he claims to be fighting for.
> So what Blake is doing is *assuming* the authority to trade
> some of those civilians' lives for the betterment of other civilians'
> lives. Lives vs. quality of life, with Blake making the decisions.
> Those sorts of rights are vested in legitimate governments, but
> Blake isn't one; and until he can get himself one, he only has a
> right to spend the lives of people who've ceded him that right.

to put the issue in reverse - how does a government retain legitimacy?  does a
non-elected government *have* legitimacy?

Let's take Albian as an example ('Countdown').  The people tried every legal
method to leave the Federation.  When that failed, they rebelled.  Were they
right to do so?

I am positive that the people were not asked whether the federation base should
be attacked - difficult to have a surprise attack if you have a referendum
first.  

Was Cauder in the right to start that attack?

> 
> > I won't give an answer, but I do think that a generation of living in peace with
> > the horrific memory of WW2 in a previous generation has led us to an unrealistic
> > desire that all wars should be won without anyone getting killed.
> 
> Ah. You think I'm objecting to the fact of people dying? I'm not.
> The problem is which people. The problem is Blake deciding at
> what point someone else's life is miserable enough to be worthless
> except as casualties in his war for freedom.
> 
> Let me ask you one, that's closer to how I see Blake's position:
> The vast majority of American colonists were not in favor of
> the American revolutionary war. Do you think it was all right
> for the relatively small bunch of rebels to force rebellion on the
> majority?


Firstly, the situations are nor comparable because there was a method of
determining the desires of the people, namely the Continental Congress.  Blake
had no method of measuring pubic opinion.  However, your point is that here the
views were known and the majority were opposed to rebellion.   INdeed, until
fighting hardened attitudes, there was a large majority opposed to independence
(and even though the declaraction eventually passed, it wasn't by a big
majority).

Many people, especially in the south, actually benefited from imperial
regulation.

It's amusing to note that the oppositon to the tax on tea was actually sparked
by a lowering of tea duty (brought about by the financial problems of the East
India Company and government attempts to stop them going bankrupt).  Americans
who'd been making profits from ilicit tea trade found themselves being undercut.

Virginians who'd been making money from land speculation were annoyed by the
extension of Quebec's jurdistiction, and many Protestents were made paranoid by
the retention of the Roman Catholic church in Quebec.  The reasons people wanted
to fight were many and varied.

It's an interesting question as to whether a small majority forced it on the
rest.  To some extent, I think they did.  I disagree with that action becasue
the situation was such that people were not suffering hardship because of the
British govenment (all of the Townshend duties, apart from that on tea, had been
repealed several years before).  (Wheras I see the people of the Federation were
suffering hardship)

However, you also have to bear in mind that people frequently had loyalties on a
more local level.  Did people think of themselves as 'Americans' in those days,
or as 'Bostonians' or 'Virgnians'?

It didn't start as an all-out war.  It began as small scale conflicts and it is
probable that the final result was not forseen (nor necessarily intended) by
either side.  Real life is far more messy and complicated than we like to think.


> And do you think it would have been all right for General Washington to turn
> his artillery on, say, the population of Massachusetts, in order to weaken the
> British?

No, because as I said above, the war was over issues that were trivial compared
to those that Blake was upl against.  (I don't think the British in America were
given to wholsale deportation and murder of civilians) (The Boer War is another
case entirely)

Besides, that would have been deliberate targeting of civilians as opposed to
killing civilians as an unavoidable part of hitting a military target.

Compare Germany bombing Coventry and London.  Coventry was a major industrial
city - many civilians died in the bombing, but it was a militry target.  London
was bombed deliberately to kill civilians and was thus not a valid target (any
more than our own bombing of Dresden.)
> 
> I'm afraid I can't agree that rebel leaders, however righteous
> their causes may be, have the same range of options open to
> them that legitimate governments do, with regard to civilian
> populations.

You're right (but for the wrong reasons). It's far easier for legitimate
governments to kill massive numbers of their own civilians.  Hitler was
'legitimate'.  Five million jews, gypsies, etc, were killed quite legitimately.

I'm with Tanya.  If I could have blown up Hitler at the price of my life and 
a handful of innocent people, I hope I'd have done it.

Judith

-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 -  Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc.  (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight )
Redemption '01  23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:39:24 +0000
From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] I've got the set
Message-ID: <388612C1.58FE9FE@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

My copy of the final Fab Films B7 tape arrived this morning from Black
Star, so I now have the complete set, to go with my other complete set
of original releases, four compelation tapes and odd spares I've picked
up cheap.

--
cheers
Steve Rogerson
http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson

"In my world, there are people in chains and you can ride them like
ponies"
The alternative Willow, Buffy the Vampire Slayer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 19:43:38 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "Lysator List" <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] History
Message-ID: <007801bf62b5$8a95f7f0$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

First rate post, Judith.


Una

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 18:45:30 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends (?) (was: Many many people...)
Message-ID: <Wr7GBKAKZgh4Ewxp@jajones.demon.co.uk>

In message <20000119092427.20793.qmail@hotmail.com>, Sally Manton
<smanton@hotmail.com> writes
>I sometimes think Orac considers Avon *his* pet/favourite toy
>as much as Avon considers Orac *his*.

Whereas I *normally* think this.
-- 
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
        The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:38:44 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <l9Iq0CAEoWh4Ew3a@jajones.demon.co.uk>

In message <26.10701c0.25b6a116@aol.com>, Pherber@aol.com writes
>In a message dated 1/18/00 1:15:30 PM Mountain Standard Time, 
>julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk writes:
>
><< what I was referring to with Prozac was the alleged suggestion by some
> American therapists that everyone should be put on Prozac, since
> everyone has a right to be happy. >>
>
>They got it wrong, of course - what we've got is the right to the *pursuit* 
>of happiness.  Actually *getting* it is a whole 'nother matter!  Personally, 
>too many happy people gives me the creeps.
>
Pass the Pylene 50.
-- 
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
        The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:54:56 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <000301bf62b9$e14f36c0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Fom Ellynne
> >>From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
> >>Ah, but I can simply love him unconditionally. Hello, flowers...
> >Hello,
> >>trees...

> Eek! Warm-and-fuzzy-ness from Una _and_ Neil!  What next?  Avon decides
> he'd look better in pink?

Oi!  Watch what you're saying, please.  The warm-and-fuzzy stuff comes
entirely from Una (who is obviously up to something unseemly), none of it
from me.  There never has been, there never is, there never will be.  Cross
my heart and hope the Lying Tree pixies never find out.

You're right about Avon and pink, though.

Neil

"The only good alien is a dead alien" - Ursula LeGuin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 07:38:42 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <000201bf62b9$e01975e0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Una wrote:
>Don't be silly, Neil. *I'm* your friend. If only to hack you off so that
> you
>can't write 'I don't have any friends' any more.

You, Una, may regard yourself as my friend, but I think of you as my
implacable enemy, to be destroyed without compunction as soon as opportunity
allows.

So, fellow Lysters, if any of you ever see me at a con crawling around on my
hands and knees with my nose to the floor, I am not drunk out of my skull, I
am merely looking for Una.

> Ah, but I can simply love him unconditionally. Hello, flowers... Hello,
> trees...

Dont look now but heer come Cally, she go triping down coriddors saing
''hello stars, hello comets''  She cannot help it, she is an alein and must
always think baeutiful thorts.

I thought of Ker Avons Guide to Being Topp on the Liberatar a long, long
time ago, but it would need a fan artist who could do a passable Ronald
Searle imitation.

Actually, now I think of it, if you study the cartoons that accompany the
opening credits of any old St Trinians film, I'm *sure* you can see Una in
there somewhere.  She might be the one carrying the bomb...

Neil

"The only good alien is a dead alien" - Ursula LeGuin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2000 21:11:16 -0000
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: "B7 List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Millenium Dome
Message-ID: <000701bf62c1$ba843560$5cbb01d5@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF62C1.B95F3D60"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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If anybody taped Lethal Weapon on Channel 5 last night, make sure you =
watch the credits right to the end if you like cheesy adverts with Paul =
in.

Andrew

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BF62C1.B95F3D60
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>If anybody taped Lethal =
Weapon on=20
Channel 5 last night, make sure you watch the credits right to the end =
if you=20
like cheesy adverts with Paul in.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Andrew</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #17
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